Just had sky fibre installed

[qasdfdsaq]

Originally Posted by ferretuk

Not aware that Qtx has mentioned usage limits so why are you changing the subject?

Ermm that's the only context the word "unlimited" is used in when it comes to broadband.

Unless you seriously think people believe adverts touting unlimited broadband are referring to infinite speed connections...

Disingenious of you to omit the lines of text immediately preceding the table you show, so allow me (I've added the bold)

Hardly, the entire table that refers to, which is irrelevant, has already been posted. Scroll up.

So the change in P2P speed for 8 hours each weekday and 30 hours of the weekend isn't 'significant'?

Not when there is no change and nobody's forcing it on you. Your speed and usage are still entirely unlimited subject to the maximum capabilities of your line/service.

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 ----------

ASA standards say nothing about protocol shaping when it comes to unlimited usage because they're nothing to do with each other.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

Ermm that's the only context the word "unlimited" is used in when it comes to broadband.

Unless you seriously think people believe adverts touting unlimited broadband are referring to infinite speed connections...


Hardly, the entire table that refers to, which is irrelevant, has already been posted. Scroll up.

Not when there is no change and nobody's forcing it on you. Your speed and usage are still entirely unlimited subject to the maximum capabilities of your line/service.

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 ----------

ASA standards say nothing about protocol shaping when it comes to unlimited usage because they're nothing to do with each other.

Actually they do Qas. Although its vague its there.

[qasdfdsaq]

"Unlimited" Broadband Rules

* The term "unlimited" can only be used if the customer incurs no additional charge or suspension of service as a consequence of exceeding a usage threshold associated with a Fair Usage Policy (FUP), a traffic management policy or similar."

There is no usage threshold associated with a fair use policy, traffic management policy, or similar that results in additional charge or suspension of service when it is exceeded.

Neither the fair usage policy or traffic management policy have a usage threshold of any kind. Thereby, it is unlimited.

[Qtx]

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

There is no usage threshold associated with a fair use policy, traffic management policy, or similar that results in additional charge or suspension of service when it is exceeded.

Neither the fair usage policy or traffic management policy have a usage threshold of any kind. Thereby, it is unlimited.

As said in another thread, it is unlimited by an industry definition but it is limited if you go by the dictionary meaning of unlimited.

Sky is still the only unlimited ISP going by the real meaning of unlimited. ISP's who traffic manage certain protocols are...limiting the connection. Just that they are allowed to use unlimited as they don't limit in other ways,

[qasdfdsaq]

Originally Posted by Qtx

As said in another thread, it is unlimited by an industry definition but it is limited if you go by the dictionary meaning of unlimited.

No internet connection in existence is unlimited by the dictionary meaning of unlimited.

Sky is still the only unlimited ISP going by the real meaning of unlimited. ISP's who traffic manage certain protocols are...limiting the connection.

Sky's is not unlimited. The connection speed is limited, at all times, to either 40Mb or 80Mb. That is traffic shaping all protocols. Therefore, by your definition, a limit.

[Qtx]

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

No internet connection in existence is unlimited by the dictionary meaning of unlimited.


Sky's is not unlimited. The connection speed is limited, at all times, to either 40Mb or 80Mb. That is traffic shaping all protocols. Therefore, by your definition, a limit.

I do see where you are coming from. I just don't agree with you saying your BT line is unlimited when it clearly has nasty traffic management/shaping, which is what this discussion stemmed from. Sky is the only ISP which does not play with customers traffic in the way BT, Virgin, Plusnet etc do. That is all that needed to be clear.

[ferretuk]

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

"Unlimited" Broadband Rules

* The term "unlimited" can only be used if the customer incurs no additional charge or suspension of service as a consequence of exceeding a usage threshold associated with a Fair Usage Policy (FUP), a traffic management policy or similar.

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

There is no usage threshold associated with a fair use policy, traffic management policy, or similar that results in additional charge or suspension of service when it is exceeded.

Neither the fair usage policy or traffic management policy have a usage threshold of any kind. Thereby, it is unlimited.

Selective quoting again... Full text for the benefit of all:

"Unlimited" Broadband Rules

* The term "unlimited" can only be used if the customer incurs no additional charge or suspension of service as a consequence of exceeding a usage threshold associated with a Fair Usage Policy (FUP), a traffic management policy or similar.

* Limitations that do affect the speed or usage of the service must also be moderate only and clearly explained in the advertisement.

I don't read it that the second bullet point is a subset of the first - It stands on its own. Nothing about usage thresholds...

Alternatively - P2P traffic will be reduced in speed after downloading 0B between the prescribed 'peak hours'.

BT do clearly explain the limitation on their website so the second sentence is satisfied. Is the reduction 'moderate' would seem to be the sticking point as this parameter is not defined.


---------- Post added at 20:10 ---------- Previous post was at 20:09 ----------

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

No internet connection in existence is unlimited by the dictionary meaning of unlimited.


Sky's is not unlimited. The connection speed is limited, at all times, to either 40Mb or 80Mb. That is traffic shaping all protocols. Therefore, by your definition, a limit.

And now the argument descends to ridiculous levels (again!)

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

No internet connection in existence is unlimited by the dictionary meaning of unlimited.


Sky's is not unlimited. The connection speed is limited, at all times, to either 40Mb or 80Mb. That is traffic shaping all protocols. Therefore, by your definition, a limit.

qas sorry I cant back you on this there is a clear difference.

if you go on what you are trying to define then by that logic not a single thing in existance is unlimited.

There is a very clear difference between selling a specific up to speed and then allowing a free for all on all protocols. Then doing the same thing but artifically restricting specific usage patterns. The latter sigificantly can reduce an isp's costs whilst saying their product is the same to customers.

My guess is if found a BT advert that doesnt mention clearly p2p is excluded the ASA would uphold a complaint I make. Dont assume companies get it right over consumers on legalities, because I did a complaint against VM to the ASA, I was the only complainent and the decision was upheld against all of VMs lawyers.

Also have to think what the average person thinks unlimited is, and you are the first person I have come across trying to explain it the way you have.

---------- Post added at 20:56 ---------- Previous post was at 20:53 ----------

Ferret what BT dont mention tho is p2p upload is throttled 24/7 to around 1/20 max speed. It is in the small print but not made clear.

[qasdfdsaq]

Originally Posted by ferretuk

I don't read it that the second bullet point is a subset of the first - It stands on its own. Nothing about usage thresholds...

Disagree. "must also" implies "in combination with".

It cannot be in combination with something if it stands on its own.

---------- Post added at 15:58 ---------- Previous post was at 15:53 ----------

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

if you go on what you are trying to define then by that logic not a single thing in existance is unlimited.

That's my point. Only one very specific attribute is "unlimited" and that is the only one they are talking about.

There is a very clear difference between selling a specific up to speed and then allowing a free for all on all protocols. Then doing the same thing but artifically restricting specific usage patterns. The latter sigificantly can reduce an isp's costs whilst saying their product is the same to customers.

Selling a car with a 200mph top speed and "unlimited" mileage doesn't mean you can always drive at 200mph all the time, wherever you are.

Also have to think what the average person thinks unlimited is, and you are the first person I have come across trying to explain it the way you have.

I am?

http://infinityfibrebroadband.com/20...limited-usage/

Because these guys describe "truly unlimited" as "no individual user controls targeted at atypical or heavy users on our BT Total Broadband and BT Infinity products.” and "allowing them to use as much bandwidth as they wish"

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

My guess is if found a BT advert that doesnt mention clearly p2p is excluded the ASA would uphold a complaint I make.

Go on then...
http://www.dmsluk.co.uk/business_pro...roadband.shtml

Ferret what BT dont mention tho is p2p upload is throttled 24/7 to around 1/20 max speed. It is in the small print but not made clear.

It isn't. I get between 1/3rd and 1/1 max speed. There is no specific, constant, or usage defined cap.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

Disagree. "must also" implies "in combination with".

It cannot be in combination with something if it stands on its own.

---------- Post added at 15:58 ---------- Previous post was at 15:53 ----------


That's my point. Only one very specific attribute is "unlimited" and that is the only one they are talking about.

Selling a car with a 200mph top speed and "unlimited" mileage doesn't mean you can always drive at 200mph all the time, wherever you are.

I am?

http://infinityfibrebroadband.com/20...limited-usage/

Because these guys describe "truly unlimited" as "no individual user controls targeted at atypical or heavy users on our BT Total Broadband and BT Infinity products.� and "allowing them to use as much bandwidth as they wish"

Go on then...
http://www.dmsluk.co.uk/business_pro...roadband.shtml


It isn't. I get between 1/3rd and 1/1 max speed. There is no specific, constant, or usage defined cap.

its consistent here. It is also consistent for most BT customer's, I dont know if you are special or not. The consistency been reported by various people is a upload speed of around 1mbit/sec on p2p protocol 24/7, the inconsistency is in the download throttling.

However you seem to have completely misunderstood the ASA regulations, they dont care if its a specific limit, they just care if its moderate or not. If it had to be constant then it may well be a regulation that doesnt exist as all a isp would have to do is slightly adjust it each day and then say its excluded.

To summarise on unlimited broadband products all limitations of service have to be clearly described on advertising material, based on past ASA decisions, having it in the small print is not good enough anything not described and is above moderate affect on the service is in breach. The ASA dont proactively look for breaches they act on reports.

and your car analogy is a big fail, the reason you cant do 200mph is due to road laws. You getting nowhere making make believe comparisons that are not a comparison, there is no law stating p2p has to be throttled.

[qasdfdsaq]

I think you've misunderstood the ASA regulations. The ones we're talking about pertain to usage limits and usage limits only. Nothing to do with traffic management, shaping, or limiting. That's a completely different aspect of the service and covered by completely different guidelines.

As for the consistency, well clearly it isn't consistent if your results are completely different to mine. Last I was on 40/10 P2P was limited to 3Mbps upload some weeks and no limit at all other weeks. Since upgrading to 80/20 it's either 3Mbps or 20Mbps upload and I haven't seen anything in between.

As far as I'm concerned for unlimited products the only limitations that have to be clearly described or absent are usage based limits. Non-usage based limits that apply the same nomatter what service a user's on or how much they used, are entirely irrelevant.

And finally, no, the reason you can't do 200mph is not because of road laws, it's because you don't expect to be able to all the time. There is no road law saying you can never do 200, there are plenty of roads with no speed limits, both in this country and elsewhere. People are used to and fully expect that there will be other limitations in place, and that is perfectly normal. The same goes for your internet connection, everybody expects there will be limitations to most of the time on any service that have nothing to do with your utilization.

[ferretuk]

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

I think you've misunderstood the ASA regulations. The ones we're talking about pertain to usage limits and usage limits only. Nothing to do with traffic management, shaping, or limiting. That's a completely different aspect of the service and covered by completely different guidelines.

No, that's what you're talking about. The point you've missed is that others are questioning the limits imposed on products that are following guidelines and advertised as unlimited. The guidelines are vague and references to 'moderate' etc are open to interpretation.

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

And finally, no, the reason you can't do 200mph is not because of road laws, it's because you don't expect to be able to all the time. There is no road law saying you can never do 200, there are plenty of roads with no speed limits, both in this country and elsewhere. People are used to and fully expect that there will be other limitations in place, and that is perfectly normal. The same goes for your internet connection, everybody expects there will be limitations to most of the time on any service that have nothing to do with your utilization.

Your analogy was flawed however. A closer analogy would be buying a car that can do 200mph, subject to applicable laws and general traffic flow, but finding that the car dealer imposes a further restriction that the car will only do 20mph if you want to drive between London and Newcastle on the A1 in peak periods of their choosing, irrespective of whether the road is busy or not. This was advertised in the brochure of course, so that's all right then

[Chrysalis]

Qas where is usage limit mentioned in this statement?

Limitations that do affect the speed or usage of the service must also be moderate only and clearly explained in the advertisement

[AdamD]

I think Qas is operating on a different plane of reality
I find it best just to ignore (block) people like that, it saves getting a headache over it. :P

[Chrysalis]

I wont be blocking Qas as he is a valuable contributer, I just find his opinion on this a bit odd but I will agree to disagree with him.