Tories again hitting the poor

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

1. We are all in this together

We are. Or we are supposed to be. This is why I would actually like to see the MPs affected as well as us. What I don't think would work is just cutting the money spent on the Houses of Parliament and various MP residences/offices etc.

2. The benefits bill is the largest but by far the biggest chunk of it goes on pensions, see how far they get if they try and hammer the old.

That's the thing.. You can ask the poor to limit the number of kids they have. Give them free and easy access to Condoms or other birth control devices, and you could argue they have little excuse for getting pregnant. Yes it would cost money for the condoms, but I'd wager it won't cost the state anywhere near what another baby would cost.

What you can't do, short of killing them, is stop people getting older.

Originally Posted by Stuart

That's the thing.. You can ask the poor to limit the number of kids they have. Give them free and easy access to Condoms or other birth control devices, and you could argue they have little excuse for getting pregnant. Yes it would cost money for the condoms, but I'd wager it won't cost the state anywhere near what another baby would cost.

What you can't do, short of killing them, is stop people getting older.

Plus old people a lot more and people are more inclined to support benefits they expect to receive.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Stuart

We are. Or we are supposed to be. This is why I would actually like to see the MPs affected as well as us. What I don't think would work is just cutting the money spent on the Houses of Parliament and various MP residences/offices etc.



That's the thing.. You can ask the poor to limit the number of kids they have. Give them free and easy access to Condoms or other birth control devices, and you could argue they have little excuse for getting pregnant. Yes it would cost money for the condoms, but I'd wager it won't cost the state anywhere near what another baby would cost.

What you can't do, short of killing them, is stop people getting older.

So instead of breaking it down and seeing what costs most, the pensions, they hammer all the disabled, jobless and children under the guise of tackling the welfare bill, to me its more ideological than anything, considering all the cash atos and a4e are milking out of it I just can't see how they will save anything and that's what Gideons all about, what loophole or exemption did he rule out for the richest among us as the saving was a trifle again.

[Chrysalis]

I just watched britians hidden hungry.

Aired by the bbc.

Here is whats bizzare, it was filmed in coventry not far from me in the midlands yet the show was only for bbc scotland, so probably very little in england have viewed it.

It showed numerous people who visited food bank charities.

A young lady called charlotte volunteered there and had no income at all, she was told by the job centre to have a child so she could qualify for benefits, she refused to have that child.

There was a few other cases, as well but all the other cases shown were people who had children.

One case shown was a guy who was abusing the system, lieing about his childs birthday, previous job etc. He fooled the manager of the food bank and was getting food without issued vouchers, whilst another person was challenged even tho she had a voucher. This highlights the danger of individuals judging people at face value.

2 of the people shown including the lady who was questioned were doing charity work themselves, the young girl herself was actually working for the food bank. I relate with the stories as myself having benefited from social help ended up doing charity work myself for the same people who had helped me. Apparently now we have record number of food banks opening in an era where certian parts of the population feel we have no poverty in this country.

Also this show is not about welfare in particular, one lady admitted her problems were made worse by the fact she chose to work for mcdonolds instead of staying unemployed, which highlighted 2 issues, one that mcdonalds dont pay a livign wage and two that the state doesnt help low paid workers enough (what a lot of us already know) and proves the tories values wrong that their solution to work not paying is to make the welfare state unfit for purpose but it doesnt solve the problem that low paid jobs dont pay a living wage.

Funny enough even tho I havent used a food bank, I personally only have one meal a day on average, as its something I got used to whilst on incapacity benefit and have stuck to that habit and now dont regret it. Because charlotte temporarily managed to get back to normal eating habits but then fell into trouble again and because her body had adjusted to the new eating habits she broke down.

The show is only on iplayer for another few hours. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...Hidden_Hungry/

What we seeing now is ideological, there is an assumption the poor cannot manage money (when I feel its the opposite the rich cant handle money), this is proven when we get people on decent wages saying they need to keep their child benefits, tax credits, cant afford more tax etc. because they "work bloody hard" and cant afford to go without, my answer to them is if you cant afford to get by on say 30k a year, how do you expect someone on 10k to manage, I never get a straight answer other than because "I work for it".

In terms of the original reason for the topic, I dont feel a child limit is a problem and is something I would be ok with. The one part of the welfare system that has always been too soft is the amount paid for children. I got no issue with help for childcare I will make that clear tho as I repsect childcare is expensive.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

I just watched britians hidden hungry.

Aired by the bbc.

Here is whats bizzare, it was filmed in coventry not far from me in the midlands yet the show was only for bbc scotland, so probably very little in england have viewed it.

It was shown across the whole UK on Tuesday 30 October, just not all at the same time. England got it at 10.35pm. The last region to start screening it was Scotland at 11.35pm which is why it's showing as 'Last on .... only in Scotland' at the top of the show's BBC page. But the full transmission details are at the bottom of the same page.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01nqcbm

What Chris said - we watched it in Yorkshire last Tuesday evening.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Stuart

We are. Or we are supposed to be. This is why I would actually like to see the MPs affected as well as us. What I don't think would work is just cutting the money spent on the Houses of Parliament and various MP residences/offices etc.



That's the thing.. You can ask the poor to limit the number of kids they have. Give them free and easy access to Condoms or other birth control devices, and you could argue they have little excuse for getting pregnant. Yes it would cost money for the condoms, but I'd wager it won't cost the state anywhere near what another baby would cost.

What you can't do, short of killing them, is stop people getting older.

Pensioners are a huge bill I am still waiting for them to get any kind of significant cut, but here is the problem.

A lot of the decision makers are approaching pensionable age.

Alot of voters are of pensionable age.

Media is generally sympathetic to pensioners.

eg. someone who is 64 who is not working is a scrounger by the media, they turn 65 and suddenly they are a deserving pensioner.

However pensioners are not the biggest state expense, the banks are, as it stands 228 billion has gone to the banks net since 2008 directly of the state.
We also have 10s of billions lost to tax avoidance, and 10s of other billions lost to tax cuts.

Europe is taking action on tax avoidance from companies like amazon and apple who pay tax overseas, whilst the uk is "investigating".

---------- Post added at 14:50 ---------- Previous post was at 14:49 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

It was shown across the whole UK on Tuesday 30 October, just not all at the same time. England got it at 10.35pm. The last region to start screening it was Scotland at 11.35pm which is why it's showing as 'Last on .... only in Scotland' at the top of the show's BBC page. But the full transmission details are at the bottom of the same page.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01nqcbm

ok thanks, didnt know that.

what your thoughts on it?

I've not seen it, but I might fire up the iPlayer if I get a chance this week.

[Chrysalis]

need to today, is 8 hours left.

---------- Post added at 15:03 ---------- Previous post was at 14:54 ----------

Originally Posted by Stuart

Which conclusion are you questioning? The one where I state that the money the government is wasting on things for MPs is a few million, so the amount is rather lower than the multi billion dollar benefits bill? In which case I'd cite basic maths.

Or are you questioning my conclusion that a lot of people are claiming benefits they aren't entitled to? Note, I said a lot, I did not say all or even most. I actually believe the number of people claiming benefits illegally is only a small fraction of the total number of claimants, but that can still be a lot of people.

The problem is really in that most budgets have escaped cuts, that the welfare budget is been targeted as if its something that has no importance and can be trimmed without consequences, this in reality is the government saying the needs of those on welfare dont matter and come after the needs of taxpayers.

Quite often cameron has been speaking on tv saying things like "we dont cut things that impact you and I this is why we have targeted the welfare budget" or "we cut welfare so normal people can carry on". Who is a normal person? over 2/3 of the population claim a benefit of some sort. A big chunk of those who are working age that claim also work. The facts are very different from the illusion thats painted. Only a small amount of people who claim are working age unemployed. And even more so only a small amount of those are childless. A childless young adult has bore the brunt of cuts, eg. someone who is 28 years old and isnt working has likely had their income cut by about 60-75%. Is probably below the amount the government says they need to live on.