fewer prosecutions for emergency services

[Derek]

Originally Posted by martyh

In some instances it does ,it is left up to the drivers discretion who uses his judgement and local knowledge ,that applies to fire engines and ambulance drivers as well

Yep. Some roads are perfectly safe to drive down at double or more the limit, others obviously are not. And sometimes depending on certain circumstances having lights and sirens on cause more problems than they solve.

Thats why before you can get to put them on there are courses lasting several weeks that are *tough* and have no guarantee of passing, plus to get in a traffic car there are more courses that are even longer and tougher.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Derek

And turning them on may have alerted the driver of the potentially stolen vehicle.

But instead he killed an innocent 16 year old and the presumption that the car was possibly stolen is still not reason enough to travel at 94 mph with no warning to other road users and it is lucky that he never killed more people on that fateful night so I hope his prosecution and imprisonment serve as a reminder to all of how easily speed kills especially when ample warning could have been given via the use of his blue and twos.

The video was posted in the original thread about his prosecution and even there it shows that the was no reason for his excess speed and reckless driving, remember this footage was part of the evidence used to prosecute him so luckily it never got lost or wiped unlike certain videos wiped by South Yorkshire Police many years back.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by martyh

It's quite clear in the rules that they are not allowed to drive the wrong way down a one way street but are allowed to go through a red light with care,so yes going the wrong way down a one way street would and should result in prosecution if it ended badly

I should have also pointed out that the reason they do it is because the police station is half way down the one-way street.

Cyclists are also fond of coming the wrong way out of that street straight across the traffic with very little regard for their own safety, I have seen many do it and narrowly missed 2 of them but that's another story.

Originally Posted by Derek

Yep. Some roads are perfectly safe to drive down at double or more the limit, others obviously are not. And sometimes depending on certain circumstances having lights and sirens on cause more problems than they solve.

Thats why before you can get to put them on there are courses lasting several weeks that are *tough* and have no guarantee of passing, plus to get in a traffic car there are more courses that are even longer and tougher.

I am currently trying to find a survey that was done in the west end of newcastle about 10yrs ago about how much the police sirens disturbed people late at night ,i don't know if it will be on the net or not but it was done because of the noise complaints ,there where similar complaints about the copper chopper when we first got that

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by martyh

I am currently trying to find a survey that was done in the west end of newcastle about 10yrs ago about how much the police sirens disturbed people late at night ,i don't know if it will be on the net or not but it was done because of the noise complaints ,there where similar complaints about the copper chopper when we first got that

I would rather hear a siren and see its blue lights as that will give me ample warning to enable me to avoid being hit by that vehicle which is better than being hit by said vehicle with no siren or lights at a speed likely to kill without any warning.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Peter_

I hope his prosecution and imprisonment serve as a reminder to all of how easily speed kills especially when ample warning could have been given via the use of his blue and twos.

Or quite possibly the girl would still have walked out in front of the car, we'll never know.

At the end of the day it's up to each officer to decide how he drives, what precautions to use and when to back off.

Originally Posted by Peter_

The video was posted in the original thread about his prosecution and even there it shows that the was no reason for his excess speed and reckless driving, remember this footage was part of the evidence used to prosecute him so luckily it never got lost or wiped unlike certain videos wiped by South Yorkshire Police many years back.

I suppose that depends how you view it. From my perspective I don't think the driving was dangerous, obviously the jury and others see it differently just like the cop who was cleared of dangerous driving a few months back. Some people viewed the dashboard camera and thought it was dangerous while others thoughts it wasn't.

---------- Post added at 21:10 ---------- Previous post was at 21:09 ----------

Originally Posted by Peter_

I would rather hear a siren and see its blue lights as that will give me ample warning to enable me to avoid being hit by that vehicle which is better than being hit by said vehicle with no siren or lights at a speed likely to kill without any warning.

Have you ever driven an emergency services vehicle at speed through a built up area? Trust me sometimes sirens and blue lights are like moths to a flame and cause more problems than they solve.

Originally Posted by Peter_

I would rather hear a siren and see its blue lights as that will give me ample warning to enable me to avoid being hit by that vehicle which is better than being hit by said vehicle with no siren or lights at a speed likely to kill without any warning.

I agree but many don't .This case from 2005 where police were threatened with legal action for using the sirens and this from 2009 because people felt that hearing sirens and police helicopters makes london seem more violent than it is and there are many more examples besides those
so you tell me, what are they supposed to do ?

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by martyh

I agree but many don't .This case from 2005 where police were threatened with legal action for using the sirens and this from 2009 because people felt that hearing sirens and police helicopters makes london seem more violent than it is and there are many more examples besides those
so you tell me, what are they supposed to do ?

Ignore the noise complaints and warn pedestrians there's a fast car being driven by a human being capable of killing someone driving through.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by martyh

I agree but many don't .This case from 2005 where police were threatened with legal action for using the sirens and this from 2009 because people felt that hearing sirens and police helicopters makes london seem more violent than it is and there are many more examples besides those
so you tell me, what are they supposed to do ?

If the is a visual and audio warning of the imminent approach of an emergency vehicle then most people will be aware and look out for that vehicle rather than ignoring those warnings and in doing so the pedestrian avoids the possibility of being killed and the driver avoids a potential prosecution, works for me.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Peter_

If the is a visual and audio warning of the imminent approach of an emergency vehicle then most people will be aware and look out for that vehicle rather than ignoring those warnings and in doing so the pedestrian avoids the possibility of being killed and the driver avoids a potential prosecution, works for me.

And if someone drunk walks in front of the emergency vehicle with all lights and sirens on should the driver still be prosecuted?

Right now they will be, no question about it. All this is doing is removing the presumption the driver will be prosecuted in almost all cases.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Derek

And if someone drunk walks in front of the emergency vehicle with all lights and sirens on should the driver still be prosecuted?

Which did not happen in Hayley's case even though the defence tried to use the fact that she had been drinking which still is not a reason for no forewarning given by the driver who was more intent on the chase. the adrenaline rush he must have got in anticipation of the chase would have soon disappeared once he hit his victim.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Peter_

Which did not happen in Hayley's case even though the defence tried to use the fact that she had been drinking which still is not a reason for no forewarning given by the driver who was more intent on the chase. the adrenaline rush he must have got in anticipation of the chase would have soon disappeared once he hit his victim.

I wasn't talking about a particular case. In general if someone who was drunk walks in front of a Police car, ambulance or fire engine and is killed right now 99.9% of the time the driver of the vehicle will be prosecuted.

Do you think that is right?

[Hom3r]

A side issue here that is related.

When I learnt to drive my instuctor told me told me how to treat emergency vehicles.

On hearing the siren i use my mirrors to look for the lights, I then act accordingly I'll drive in a bus lane if required to allow them to pass, and if I make any lane change I'll indicate.

I've even flashed a fire engine to let him out of a junction even though I have right of way. On roundabouts I have pulled into the middle and stop before the junction to allow them on.

I have even been flashed by another driver who allowed me to turn right in front of him (going through a red light) to allow a fire engine access.

Simple tricks that some people don't do.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Derek

I wasn't talking about a particular case. In general if someone who was drunk walks in front of a Police car, ambulance or fire engine and is killed right now 99.9% of the time the driver of the vehicle will be prosecuted.

Do you think that is right?

All drivers will be prosecuted in those circumstances citing undue care and attention as the reason.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Peter_

All drivers will be prosecuted in those circumstances citing undue care and attention as the reason.

Undue care and attention because someone walked into the roadway...

---------- Post added at 19:34 ---------- Previous post was at 19:33 ----------

Originally Posted by Derek

Undue care and attention because someone walked into the roadway...

No all drivers are not prosecuted in those cases but right now as it stands if you are in an emergency services vehicle your chances of getting prosecuted are much, much higher than if you were a member of the public. Personally I don't think thats right.