80mph speed limit 'would increase deaths by 20%'

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Angua

Won't matter what the speed limit is soon anyway. The roads will be too congested to do more than 30 regardless.

However, I will side with those who say speed does not kill. It will always be failing to drive to the road conditions at speed that causes the problems. I regularly travel with someone who seems to have one speed - 40mph. He has been stopped for speeding in the same place (a wide road with good visibility) 3 times on the trot. Yet for most of the time he is well under the speed limit.

Agree in part but with increased speed comes increased momentum, increased stopping distances and a proportional lowering of reaction time. Even leaving possible driver error aside, a blowout at 30mph or 70mph isn't likely to be as dangerous (to both the occupants of the vehicle and other road users in the vicinity) as one at 100mph.

[Tim Deegan]

Originally Posted by Osem

Ah but you see these drivers are perfect and don't need any of that guff. Even at 100mph plus they can see black ice, diesel spills, sharp objects on the road and the like. Their senses are honed to expect the unexpected and can even predict freak events like blowouts secure in the knowledge that their superior driving skills will always see them out of trouble. Frankly I'm surprised that drivers as good as these guys must be ever get involved in serious accidents at all but I expect it's all the fault of everyone else on the roads....

And some are too thick skinned to realise that you mean them...lol

---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:48 ----------

Originally Posted by Gary L

I think some people are taking this far too seriously.

It's a serious issue, when people get killed.

Originally Posted by Gary L

some think that anyone in uniform in an official government vehicle are superior drivers, and all others are useless too.

Now you are twisting my words. But if you want to go down that route, who else is actually trained to drive at high speeds on public roads safely?

I used to do motor racing, but just being skilled on the race track doesn't prepare you for obsticals, other drivers, oil spills, traffic coming at you head on, junctions, or drivers who panic.

Originally Posted by Gary L

some think that having this certificate makes you a superior driver, and not having one means you're useless.

As I keep saying, there is no certificate.

No it doesn't mean you are useless if you aren't qualified at all. My point was that people shouldn't have an inflated belief of their skills, unless they have been tested.

Originally Posted by Gary L

some think that we should have a TV show where the useless and the superior compete. but only the superior are allowed blue lights. the useless have to have purple.

Now you are being silly about the lights.

There have been many programs testing peoples driving skills. And guess what, it's usually the cocky, over confident ones who are the worst drivers.

---------- Post added at 18:18 ---------- Previous post was at 17:58 ----------

Originally Posted by Gary L

Ok, but in a few years the government may raise the speed limit to 100mph on the motorway anyway. and those who say they sometimes drive at 100mph anyway can no longer be called irresponsible, careless or dangerous.

we have got to teach ourselves at the moment about people who drive at 80mph that they are no longer seen as a social misfit.

our government really knows how to pull our strings, don't they.

We aren't talking about those who drive at 80mph. That isn't as much of a speed differential.

I can't see the limit being raised to 100mph, but if it was then there wouldn't be a big speed differential making those driving at those speeds as dangerous.

---------- Post added at 18:24 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Agree in part but with increased speed comes increased momentum, increased stopping distances and a proportional lowering of reaction time. Even leaving possible driver error aside, a blowout at 30mph or 70mph isn't likely to be as dangerous (to both the occupants of the vehicle and other road users in the vicinity) as one at 100mph.

So in other words, although speed doesn't kill, it is a huge factor in determining if someone involved in an accidednt lives or dies.

[G UK]

Lets get one thing straight, the roads are dangerous places made more dangerous by idiots driving outside of one or more of, their skill/their vehicles capabilities/the conditions. On the back of that there are several points:

- Speed is a factor in 100% accidents in that, as has been pointed out, the slower you go the lesser the affects to the point that if nobody was moving there would not have been an accident. This is why any quote of speed is a factor in X% of accidents is a joke and just a fallback of lazy accident investigators/reporters. Excessive speed for the conditions is another matter but is not a fixed value and is very difficult to prove (driver/vehicle/road surface/environment etc) despite being noted down as the easy option in many cases where it was not the root cause.

- If the motorway speed limit was 60 we would be having the exact same argument with the same people about why we shouldn't raise it to 70. Taking the lowest common denominator for the standard of driving as many people state, we should have a maximum speed limit of 30 across the board but this would be seen as silly and going overboard due to the impact on peoples day to day lives and the economy.

- Having a blow out or other failure at 50, 60, 70 or 80+ isn't going to make a whole lot of difference to your average driver in most vehicles on the road today as people don't know what to do in such a situation anyway which will lead to loss of control of the vehicle. On a separated carriageway like a motorway all traffic should be flowing within 30mph or so of each other making any impact significantly less than 80mph into a brick wall. If people don't see a stationary object in front of them then they are either not looking ahead or are driving too quick for the conditions at which we come back to my second point and may as well lower all speed limits to 30 to make sure this worst case is survivable.

- Pedestrians should be a none issue in this discussion as they are banned on motorways and people on the hard shoulder are advised to get back behind the guard rail.


As background I have been in an accident caused by a blowout that nearly took my life (classic car, 70mph dual carriageway, no guard rails & trees) and therefore know the risks, I have been on track and taken my vehicles to their and my limits in various conditions. I know my limits, my vehicles limits, how to handle the car under adverse conditions such as certain failures and when control is not possible & I drive under the speed limit when required by conditions like ice and fog.

Several of you however would still paint me as some form of reckless idiot that wants to kill people because I believe some speed limits like those on the motorway could be safely raised.

Speed limits are a blunt force weapon that loses effectiveness as vehicles become more safe, and at speed where the difference between 70 and 80 is significantly less than that between 30 and 40. In my opinion the real answer for further increasing road safety is through Education. Education in vehicle handling in adverse conditions (learning to recognise where the limits are and what to do when you are past them e.g. Finland), reading the road ahead and general courtesy towards other road users.

[Pierre]

There you go Tim & Martyn, here's another crazy idiot.....

Originally Posted by G UK

Lets get one thing straight, the roads are dangerous places made more dangerous by idiots driving outside of one or more of, their skill/their vehicles capabilities/the conditions. On the back of that there are several points:........snip

.

As i pointed out above peoples skill set on the roads differs greatly so a compromise is reached between getting from A-B safely and quick enough to make the journey practical .Peoples own assessment of driving conditions cannot be relied on when they are late for work or any other appointment .There are a thousand things that can affect their judgement and lead them to assess the conditions incorrectly that's why we have limits and it is the utmost arrogance on the part of a driver to think he/she knows better and can somehow predict the future

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by martyh

As i pointed out above peoples skill set on the roads differs greatly so a compromise is reached between getting from A-B safely and quick enough to make the journey practical .Peoples own assessment of driving conditions cannot be relied on when they are late for work or any other appointment .There are a thousand things that can affect their judgement and lead them to assess the conditions incorrectly that's why we have limits and it is the utmost arrogance on the part of a driver to think he/she knows better and can somehow predict the future

Brilliant, accurate, definitive, logical.

I certainly can't argue against such reasoned and well thought out point.

Well done!

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Tim Deegan

It's a serious issue, when people get killed.

I want to ban the car altogether because it kills at all speeds. are you with me?

Now you are twisting my words. But if you want to go down that route, who else is actually trained to drive at high speeds on public roads safely?

Ok, who taught the first person that started the teaching of the rest?

was it just a common sense approach put into action?
if that 'policeman' was able to teach others then there has to be others that are capable of fitting the grade without having to get the training.

I was watching someone play a game on the Xbox the other day. Halo3 I think it was. he had to go through training.
"look up.. good" "look down..excellent. I think you're ready"

As I keep saying, there is no certificate.

We'll just call it a piece of paper then for arguments sake.

No it doesn't mean you are useless if you aren't qualified at all. My point was that people shouldn't have an inflated belief of their skills, unless they have been tested.

Surely you mean trained.

Now you are being silly about the lights.

Ok, so it doesn't look silly. both sides can have the blue ones.

We aren't talking about those who drive at 80mph. That isn't as much of a speed differential.

Of course it is. it's a big difference.
just the saame as it would be a big difference if it was 40 compared to 30.

I can't see the limit being raised to 100mph, but if it was then there wouldn't be a big speed differential making those driving at those speeds as dangerous.

Compared to what, 80?
so when does speed become dangerous then. you've lost me.

And please don't say anything about certificates, blue flashing lights, sirens or training.

[Osem]

There's a very big difference between believing and arguing that limits could/should be raised and ignoring the current legal limits on the basis that it suits. I'd be all for more driver education and better enforcement of both reckless speeding and other aspects of damgerous driving but until that happens and those speeders who tailgate and try to intimidate other drivers out of their way are forced off the roads one way or another, higher speed limits arern't what's required. That prospect may annoy those who feel they're the better drivers amongst us but I'm afraid it's a price we all have to pay for using public roads upon which there are drivers of varying abilities/attitudes and a wide range of vehicles some of which are far better/safer/better maintained than others. Adjusting national limits upwards to suit those who believe they're la creme de la creme and their vehicles simply puts everyone else at extra risk and I have to say that, when it comes to driving, some folks I have met not only have a very inflated opinion of their own abilities but a correspondingly low opinion of everyone else's.

[Hom3r]

IMHO just because somebody has a bit of paper that say they have done advanced driving doesn't mean thay are better than somebody who hasn't.

I looked into doing this but the cost to do it and the price my car insurance would fall was a joke.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Osem

IMHO the main problem is not the speed limit it's that too many drivers drive to (and well above) the limit rather than the conditions which is why we regulalry see carnage when there's fog, ice etc. Raising the maximum limit without doing something about this and the serious tailgating etc. we already see on our motorways would be very risky.

In all due respect when there is fog etc. people are probably going slower than 80mph due to the weather. Especially when there is ice. If there is carnage even going at 60mph you in trouble.

Why not use germany as an example of how dangerous it is?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

In all due respect when there is fog etc. people are probably going slower than 80mph due to the weather. Especially when there is ice. If there is carnage even going at 60mph you in trouble.

Why not use germany as an example of how dangerous it is?

The number of serious fog related accidents which occur would indicate that people aren't sufficiently careful when driving in such conditions whether it be speed, distance form other vehicles or just paying attention. It only takes one idiot on a motorway to create mayhem but I'd rather encounter an idiot in fog at 50 than 80 wouldn't you?

Here's your German example although there are other factors to consider in making comparisons between the motorways in different countires such as traffic volumes, road layouts, quality of maintenance, weather etc. etc.


http://www.etsc.eu/documents/Speed_Fact_Sheet_1.pdf

[Chrysalis]

Yes, mainly because driving at 80 in the fog is stupid, the speed limits are for dry clear weather.

[Tim Deegan]

Originally Posted by G UK

Lets get one thing straight, the roads are dangerous places made more dangerous by idiots driving outside of one or more of, their skill/their vehicles capabilities/the conditions. On the back of that there are several points:

- Speed is a factor in 100% accidents in that, as has been pointed out, the slower you go the lesser the affects to the point that if nobody was moving there would not have been an accident. This is why any quote of speed is a factor in X% of accidents is a joke and just a fallback of lazy accident investigators/reporters. Excessive speed for the conditions is another matter but is not a fixed value and is very difficult to prove (driver/vehicle/road surface/environment etc) despite being noted down as the easy option in many cases where it was not the root cause.

- If the motorway speed limit was 60 we would be having the exact same argument with the same people about why we shouldn't raise it to 70. Taking the lowest common denominator for the standard of driving as many people state, we should have a maximum speed limit of 30 across the board but this would be seen as silly and going overboard due to the impact on peoples day to day lives and the economy.

- Having a blow out or other failure at 50, 60, 70 or 80+ isn't going to make a whole lot of difference to your average driver in most vehicles on the road today as people don't know what to do in such a situation anyway which will lead to loss of control of the vehicle. On a separated carriageway like a motorway all traffic should be flowing within 30mph or so of each other making any impact significantly less than 80mph into a brick wall. If people don't see a stationary object in front of them then they are either not looking ahead or are driving too quick for the conditions at which we come back to my second point and may as well lower all speed limits to 30 to make sure this worst case is survivable.

- Pedestrians should be a none issue in this discussion as they are banned on motorways and people on the hard shoulder are advised to get back behind the guard rail.


As background I have been in an accident caused by a blowout that nearly took my life (classic car, 70mph dual carriageway, no guard rails & trees) and therefore know the risks, I have been on track and taken my vehicles to their and my limits in various conditions. I know my limits, my vehicles limits, how to handle the car under adverse conditions such as certain failures and when control is not possible & I drive under the speed limit when required by conditions like ice and fog.

Several of you however would still paint me as some form of reckless idiot that wants to kill people because I believe some speed limits like those on the motorway could be safely raised.

Speed limits are a blunt force weapon that loses effectiveness as vehicles become more safe, and at speed where the difference between 70 and 80 is significantly less than that between 30 and 40. In my opinion the real answer for further increasing road safety is through Education. Education in vehicle handling in adverse conditions (learning to recognise where the limits are and what to do when you are past them e.g. Finland), reading the road ahead and general courtesy towards other road users.

I agree with you completely. And I also agree that it makes sense to raise speed limits to 80mph, but only on motorways with at least 3 lanes, and hard shoulders.

As you said the problem is the speed differential. So there needs to be at least two overtaking lanes to allow for the wider speed range from HGV's doing 60, and cars doing 80.

I have always thought it to be crazy that a dual carriageway A road has the same speed limit as a 3 or 4 lane motorway. Especially when you think that you can have farm traffic crossing the A road, or cyclists, and no hard shoulders in many places.

---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 17:50 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

There you go Tim & Martyn, here's another crazy idiot.....

Not at all. He is talking a lot of sense.

---------- Post added at 17:53 ---------- Previous post was at 17:51 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

As i pointed out above peoples skill set on the roads differs greatly so a compromise is reached between getting from A-B safely and quick enough to make the journey practical .Peoples own assessment of driving conditions cannot be relied on when they are late for work or any other appointment .There are a thousand things that can affect their judgement and lead them to assess the conditions incorrectly that's why we have limits and it is the utmost arrogance on the part of a driver to think he/she knows better and can somehow predict the future

Absolutely.....and that arrogance leads to over inflated self belief in ones own abilities, as we have seen in this forum.

---------- Post added at 17:55 ---------- Previous post was at 17:53 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Brilliant, accurate, definitive, logical.

I certainly can't argue against such reasoned and well thought out point.

Well done!

Well you have been doing all the way through this thread......unless of course you think you are a superhuman driver, and it doesn't apply to you.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Tim Deegan

Not at all. He is talking a lot of sense.

you're priceless

Well you have been doing all the way through this thread......unless of course you think you are a superhuman driver, and it doesn't apply to you.

turn on your sarcasm detector

[Tim Deegan]

Originally Posted by Gary L

I want to ban the car altogether because it kills at all speeds. are you with me?

Now you are just being stupid.....we can have an intelligent debate, but I'm not going to debate anything with someone who just comes out with stupid statement to cause an argument.....that is known as trolling.

Originally Posted by Gary L

Ok, who taught the first person that started the teaching of the rest?

As with most traning, it has been developed and improved over many years, mainly learning from mistakes that have been made previously (often with fatalities).

Originally Posted by Gary L

was it just a common sense approach put into action?
if that 'policeman' was able to teach others then there has to be others that are capable of fitting the grade without having to get the training.

As you have never done the training, then you can't possibly comment. But I can tell you that it isn't just a case of using common sense. There is a lot more to it than that. And it is the sort of course that you do really need to go on to understand. Although it is very difficult to describe to someone who has no experience of it.

Originally Posted by Gary L

I was watching someone play a game on the Xbox the other day. Halo3 I think it was. he had to go through training.
"look up.. good" "look down..excellent. I think you're ready"

Well if you were stuck at that level, then you wouldn't have even passed your driving test. And certainly wouldn't be on the highest level of driving course for public roads.

Originally Posted by Gary L

We'll just call it a piece of paper then for arguments sake.

No we won't, because it isn't. It's one of those things that if you don't keep your competence up, then you will lose it, and be taken off driving.

Originally Posted by Gary L

Surely you mean trained.

No I mean tested. Anyone can do a training course, but not anyone can reach the required level, and then maintain it.

Remember these courses are designed to stop you killing either yourself or another member of the public, when you are in an extremely dangerous situation.

Originally Posted by Gary L

Ok, so it doesn't look silly. both sides can have the blue ones.

You completely miss the point....it's not just about blue lights or sirens. It's about a combination of driving skills, progressive driving skills, vehicle handling skills, observation skills, combined with an audible and visual warning to other road users.

Originally Posted by Gary L

Of course it is. it's a big difference.
just the saame as it would be a big difference if it was 40 compared to 30.

Have you ever seen the state of a car or motorcycle that was travelling at 100mph+ when it drove into the back of a HGV doing 50 or 60mph? It's the same as driving into a brick wall at over 50mph. Do you have any idea what injuries that causes?

As other people keep repeating, the wider the speed differential, the greater the impact, and the less the reaction time.

Originally Posted by Gary L

Compared to what, 80?
so when does speed become dangerous then. you've lost me.

SPEED DIFFERENTIAL.....as we keep saying.

Originally Posted by Gary L

And please don't say anything about certificates, blue flashing lights, sirens or training.

Why not? you did!!!

---------- Post added at 18:21 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

There's a very big difference between believing and arguing that limits could/should be raised and ignoring the current legal limits on the basis that it suits. I'd be all for more driver education and better enforcement of both reckless speeding and other aspects of damgerous driving but until that happens and those speeders who tailgate and try to intimidate other drivers out of their way are forced off the roads one way or another, higher speed limits arern't what's required. That prospect may annoy those who feel they're the better drivers amongst us but I'm afraid it's a price we all have to pay for using public roads upon which there are drivers of varying abilities/attitudes and a wide range of vehicles some of which are far better/safer/better maintained than others. Adjusting national limits upwards to suit those who believe they're la creme de la creme and their vehicles simply puts everyone else at extra risk and I have to say that, when it comes to driving, some folks I have met not only have a very inflated opinion of their own abilities but a correspondingly low opinion of everyone else's.

Are you a traffic police officer by any chance??