Eurozone will collapse...

[gba93]

Originally Posted by Damien

I didn't say they were doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. In fact if you read my post, it's the one you quoted, I quite clearly speculate into their motivation:

They are acting out of self-interest. This is what countries do when they engage in foreign diplomacy and Germany has a stronger hand than a lot of the EU countries, but that isn't sinister. All countries have their own interests at heart and attempt to do a deal.

So it all comes back to what their self-interests really are .... and so we come full circle

Originally Posted by nomadking

How about those who always claim the the EU has, and will prevent war? That is frequently given as a reason to stay in the EU.

Well, I believe that was one of the arguments in favour of setting it up. I think the World has changed to such an extent that any war between big European states is very unlikely. It's just hard to see any circumstance where a war could break out. Maybe, maybe, between smaller states.

Although I am in favour of seeing how much we can share our defence burdens and costs across the EU. Especially with the bigger countries. It's a difficult proposition but we've made some tentative steps when we agreed to share aircraft carriers with the French. This could help reduce costs across the board.

I do think we should look at ways to work very closely with Europe, some things will be easier to do than others of course.

Germany has lumbered itself with employment and other laws that potentially make it uncompetitive. The best way it has to cope with that is to burden as many other countries as possible with those same regulations.

Nonsense. The better thing to do would be to revoke those laws. If it's uncompetitive it's of little use to them if they inflict those laws onto the EU member states because that does nothing to countries in America and Asia. Not to mention that German is actually quite a productive country anyway.

---------- Post added at 22:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:26 ----------

Originally Posted by gba93

So it all comes back to what their self-interests really are .... and so we come full circle

No we don't. There is a massive different between acting out of self-interest using diplomacy and doing so in war.

---------- Post added at 22:28 ---------- Previous post was at 22:27 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Which is why the likes of the Germans and French criticising the UK for doing just that is hard to swallow. We're all playing the same game and looking after number one is what matters most to us all. It seems they expected us to help protect their interests and are rather indignant that we chose not to. They'd have done exactly the same in our shoes.

Yup.

[gba93]

Originally Posted by Damien

No we don't. There is a massive different between acting out of self-interest using diplomacy and doing so in war.

The end result could still be the same for the weaker countries - lack of freedom, inability to govern according to the will of the people and being dictated to by another country (or countries)

[Osem]

I think those amongst us who believed that we in the EU could all rely on eachother have been shown up for what they are - naive. As worthy a notion as it is, it never works like that in the real world outside Brussels and I predict it won't be too long before the cracks start to appear in Sarkozy's alliance of convenience with Merkel. That's when the muck will hit the fan.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Damien

Nonsense. The better thing to do would be to revoke those laws. If it's uncompetitive it's of little use to them if they inflict those laws onto the EU member states because that does nothing to countries in America and Asia. Not to mention that German is actually quite a productive country anyway.

They can no longer rely on currency level changes to even things out within the Eurozone/EU. It's handicapping their competitors more than they would otherwise be. They wouldn't be trying to damage their own industry, whilst improving that of other EU countries.

[chris9991]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

The EU15 comprised the following 15 countries: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom.

Given they were under communist rule for part of this period you'd have expected economic growth to improve as they were liberalised, surely?

This is the point, despite being rid of communism and the ever closer political unions the EU-15 continue to fail to keep pace with the rest of the world.

-

I think you miss understand, I was really after the source of the data so that I could remove the latter members from the figures and look at only the states that have been members since 1973 - it would be the only fair way to look at the effects of the EU on GDP. Anyone can draw a chart to show what they like but I'm more keen in looking at the data. It is bit sad I know but I like to draw my own conclusions

Originally Posted by gba93

The end result could still be the same for the weaker countries - lack of freedom, inability to govern according to the will of the people and being dictated to by another country (or countries)

Yes, that is just the same - invasion by armed forces and living under martial law, or being asked to balance your country's fiscal expenditure because someone else has to support bailing you out.....

[chris9991]

Found the data source now cheers

http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/Macroeconomics/

[gba93]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Yes, that is just the same - invasion by armed forces and living under martial law, or being asked to balance your country's fiscal expenditure because someone else has to support bailing you out.....

A prison is a prison whether you have armed guards or just a locked door.

It seems to me that everything hangs on Germany's fiscal security..but are they able to carry the whole of a federated Europe along with the combined debt of Greece,Italy,Spain,Portugal,Ireland because I can't see many of the other poorer allies in Europe having the wherewithal to help out.

[Osem]

And, so far as I can see, if the ratings agencies and financial markets determine that Germany can't do that then they'll be increasingly subject to higher interest payments on their debts and have even less ability to tackle the crisis elsewhere.

We mustn't forget that the Germans have done very well out of a weaker Euro so may be feeling a tad more generous right now than they might be if/when things at home become harder and their people start to feel the cuts others are experiencing. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if they know full well that this is their only credible course of action and have their fingers and toes crossed hoping that it works.

Originally Posted by gba93

A prison is a prison whether you have armed guards or just a locked door.

Frankly I cannot be bummed to worry about it..It's all coming down to if my husband's health holds out until he is either made redundant or reaches retirement age whichever arrives first.
I'm sure Europe will survive one way or another.She always has, through centuries of war,famine,disease and trade.

[Alan Fry]

How can the Lib Dems stay in government after what David Cameron and their Anti-Europe Allies have done!

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

How can the Lib Dems stay in government after what David Cameron and their Anti-Europe Allies have done!

Because in government they still have some say rather than being the political irrelevance they normally are?