General WWE (no spoilers for 24 hours) - Page 51

TheDon · 20-07-2011, 17:47

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Originally Posted by Welshchris

TheDon u dont think the Diva Division is for their wrestling ability do u seeing that a large percentage of the WWE fan base are men.

It should be both.
It never used to be this bad. (or maybe it was but we used to get bra and panty matches to make up for it...)

The Diva champion not even being able to run the ropes is ridiculous (and she's not even that hot).

Russ · 20-07-2011, 19:15

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Originally Posted by TheDon

There's not much he can do to adapt to most of them though This for instance, Chavo's left arm comes up and blocks off the spin killing the momentum and Sin Cara is absolutely helpless in doing anything to recover from that, seeing as he's up side down and being held onto. This is a move he's done for absolutely years with no issues in Mexico so it's not like he's not used to doing it. Conversely it's a move that no one in the WWE has experience with, yet when it goes bad Sin Cara gets the blame.

It's botches like that that everyone looks at and goes "Sin Cara, he's so bad!" when in reality it's not his fault and there's nothing he can do about it.

That's just one case out of many. Cara has had plenty of time to adapt to WWE's style and he's done very little of it since he's been there. He gets a bad name because he causes most of the botches and is too rigid in his style.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

She said? Don't get me started on the Diva's division! Lets bring out 14 Divas for a 7 on 7 tag team match, have it be over in 2minutes with no tags! The faster WWE either disbands the Diva's division or starts bringing through women that can ACTUALLY wrestle (Kelly Kelly can't even run the ropes) rather than just look good the better. As of now a Diva's match = time to put the kettle on. Although it'll probably be over before your cuppas even brewed.

Yes, she said. Men and women get the same training in FCW.

The divas' division isn't all bad...just mostly. Beth Phoenix, Nattie Neidhart, Kharma and Gail Kim can all work but it can't all revolve around them. They need to employ more female wrestlers and less (or even no) fitness models.

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The Diva champion not even being able to run the ropes is ridiculous (and she's not even that hot).

I respected your opinion until that point..

TheDon · 20-07-2011, 19:45

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Originally Posted by Russ

That's just one case out of many. Cara has had plenty of time to adapt to WWE's style and he's done very little of it since he's been there. He gets a bad name because he causes most of the botches and is too rigid in his style.

I could link to plenty of his other botches that weren't his fault. I've yet to see one that was entirely down to him.

It's not like the rest of WWE is botch free either, the Cena/Punk match on Sunday was absolutely botchtastic, but it gets ignored because of the hype around it. Sin Cara's are just a bit more obvious because of the high risk nature of his repertoire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

Yes, she said. Men and women get the same training in FCW.

The divas' division isn't all bad...just mostly. Beth Phoenix, Nattie Neidhart, Kharma and Gail Kim can all work but it can't all revolve around them. They need to employ more female wrestlers and less (or even no) fitness models.

I know they do, I was just using it as an excuse to launch into a Diva rant

I'm hoping when Kharma comes back they'll sort it out, but right now it's just a complete joke that they're not even trying to take seriously. I'd say it doesn't help with Cole burying the entire roster, but with a roster like it has it's kinda hard to take it seriously.

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Originally Posted by Russ

I respected your opinion until that point..

She's just a generic blonde plastic model, nothing really special about her.

Russ · 20-07-2011, 19:55

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Originally Posted by TheDon

I could link to plenty of his other botches that weren't his fault. I've yet to see one that was entirely down to him.

It's not like the rest of WWE is botch free either, the Cena/Punk match on Sunday was absolutely botchtastic, but it gets ignored because of the hype around it. Sin Cara's are just a bit more obvious because of the high risk nature of his repertoire.

I don't like pulling back the curtain on wrestling publically but one of the unwritten rules is if you bring a new style to a show or promotion, it's your own responsibility to ensure it adapts to the status quo. Cara should have spoken to his opponents before each match and explained what he was going to do and ask if they were ok with it. Judging by his number of botches I can't see him having done that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

I know they do, I was just using it as an excuse to launch into a Diva rant

I'm hoping when Kharma comes back they'll sort it out, but right now it's just a complete joke that they're not even trying to take seriously. I'd say it doesn't help with Cole burying the entire roster, but with a roster like it has it's kinda hard to take it seriously.

In fairness that was mainly due to his major heel personna at the time. He hasn't done it since.

TheDon · 20-07-2011, 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

I don't like pulling back the curtain on wrestling publically but one of the unwritten rules is if you bring a new style to a show or promotion, it's your own responsibility to ensure it adapts to the status quo. Cara should have spoken to his opponents before each match and explained what he was going to do and ask if they were ok with it. Judging by his number of botches I can't see him having done that.

Half the roster are too green to even wrestle WWE style without botching, putting it all on Sin Cara to teach them how to deal with a luchador is pretty ridiculous, especially as the guy can't speak English. It's really hard to blame a guy that can't speak the language when he's thrown in at the deep end like this.

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Originally Posted by Russ

In fairness that was mainly due to his major heel personna at the time. He hasn't done it since.

He did it last raw, he did it at MITB, he does it every single time the Divas come out. I can't remember the last time there was a Diva's match where Cole didn't say something like "thank goodness that lasted all of about 30 seconds" (his exact words on monday night's raw).

Russ · 20-07-2011, 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

Half the roster are too green to even wrestle WWE style without botching, putting it all on Sin Cara to teach them how to deal with a luchador is pretty ridiculous, especially as the guy can't speak English. It's really hard to blame a guy that can't speak the language when he's thrown in at the deep end like this.

No-one is saying Cara should teach anyone anything. What he should be doing is going over his move-set with his opponents. Rey has been around long enough for most of the roster to know how to work something of a lucha style. There really is no excuse for his recurring botches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

He did it last raw, he did it at MITB, he does it every single time the Divas come out. I can't remember the last time there was a Diva's match where Cole didn't say something like "thank goodness that lasted all of about 30 seconds" (his exact words on monday night's raw).

He keeps it on the mic only and it's no worse than a normal heel-commentator feud with a worker, the only difference is it's against a section of the roster. No longer does he interrupt matches. He's toned it down a LOT.

TheDon · 20-07-2011, 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

No-one is saying Cara should teach anyone anything. What he should be doing is going over his move-set with his opponents. Rey has been around long enough for most of the roster to know how to work something of a lucha style. There really is no excuse for his recurring botches.

They're not HIS recurring botches though. They're his opponents.

He was bought into the WWE for his high risk high flying style, you're basically saying he should just tone it down to normal WWE style.

WWE were insistent on him not only bringing his usual repertoire of moves from Mexico but also stepping it up to be as exciting as possible. Hell they even had him do a completely new ring entrance with the trampoline, which they managed to botch the first time by putting the trampoline too close to the ring.

It's just a classic case of too much too soon for everyone, and you can't really blame Sin Cara for all of it because he's only doing what he was bought there to do, and if his opponents can't deal with the style that he's booked to wrestle in then the people doing the booking should bear the responsibility.

There's more and more botches every week, and not just Sin Cara, it just seems like he's the only one that gets pointed out because people don't like the style and prefer your standard WWE style of big guys just running at each other.

Most of the roster is way too green to even be wrestling on TV, and sticking someone like Sin Cara in there for them to deal with is a recipe for disaster, and you can't blame the guy when he's just doing what they tell him to.

(I won't go into the amount of times Rey has botched and injured people as well)

Russ · 20-07-2011, 22:36

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Originally Posted by TheDon

They're not HIS recurring botches though. They're his opponents.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. From an insider's perspective Cara should be doing more to ensure his style is adapted to WWE's.

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Originally Posted by TheDon

He was bought into the WWE for his high risk high flying style, you're basically saying he should just tone it down to normal WWE style.

Not tone it down, adapt. Call spots more. Use the referee more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

WWE were insistent on him not only bringing his usual repertoire of moves from Mexico but also stepping it up to be as exciting as possible. Hell they even had him do a completely new ring entrance with the trampoline, which they managed to botch the first time by putting the trampoline too close to the ring.

It wasn't too close, it was too low but he managed it successfully numerous times while rehearsing. He bottled it when on tv.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

It's just a classic case of too much too soon for everyone, and you can't really blame Sin Cara for all of it because he's only doing what he was bought there to do, and if his opponents can't deal with the style that he's booked to wrestle in then the people doing the booking should bear the responsibility.

They know the lucha style from Rey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

There's more and more botches every week, and not just Sin Cara, it just seems like he's the only one that gets pointed out because people don't like the style and prefer your standard WWE style of big guys just running at each other.

Yes there are botches all the time but no-one does them as much as he does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

Most of the roster is way too green to even be wrestling on TV, and sticking someone like Sin Cara in there for them to deal with is a recipe for disaster, and you can't blame the guy when he's just doing what they tell him to.

Yes many are green but they've put him in with seasoned workers.

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Originally Posted by TheDon

(I won't go into the amount of times Rey has botched and injured people as well)

Maybe that's because he hasn't done it for a long, long time?

TheDon · 20-07-2011, 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

I'm sorry but you're wrong. From an insider's perspective Cara should be doing more to ensure his style is adapted to WWE's.

Not tone it down, adapt. Call spots more. Use the referee more.

They don't want him to adapt though. They want him to perform the style they bought him in for. There have also been several places where he has adapted due to bad positioning from his opponents and done less risky moves, and people have also moaned about that.

The problem isn't with not calling spots, people know the spots, they've just ****ed them up, he's relying on people catching him right and if people don't do that like Chavo didn't then no amount of calling spots is going to make them not **** up the grab.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

It wasn't too close, it was too low but he managed it successfully numerous times while rehearsing. He bottled it when on tv.

No, the trampoline was too close to the ring apron, it hadn't been pushed out far enough.
He didn't bottle anything. The trampoline was positioned wrong. It wasn't possible for him to make the jump cleanly because of that, that he managed to recover despite the bad positioning shows he's not that bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

They know the lucha style from Rey.

Rey has never done anything like what they're expecting Sin Cara to do.

Just for a couple more examples of Sin Cara's "botches":
Not Sin Cara's fault that Primo can't stand on a rope.
This was Riley being positioned badly by Cena

He's really not the botch machine that people think, people just need to get used to the spots.

TheDon · 21-07-2011, 22:52

CM Punk crashed the WWE event at Comic Con

wwe · 22-07-2011, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

CM Punk crashed the WWE event at Comic Con

yer i read about that. He came in with the wwe belt and said the champ is here. And made a challege to anyone to come to chicgo. Triple h came out as well and spoke to him.

TheDon · 22-07-2011, 15:01

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Originally Posted by wwe

yer i read about that. He came in with the wwe belt and said the champ is here. And made a challege to anyone to come to chicgo. Triple h came out as well and spoke to him.

You could just click the link to see it

Chad · 22-07-2011, 21:01

I've not watched WWE regularly for about 5 years, man I hate the PG TV approach. I am however interested to see how this latest angle with CM Punk plays out, and hopefully with HHH as RAW General Manager we may see a return to more risky themes. I haven't been this excited about a storyline since Rick Martel blinded Jake The Snake with his arrogance!

adzii_nufc · 23-07-2011, 13:05

HHH is not the Raw general manager. In storyline he has Vince Mcmahon's job so he is the kayfabe Chairman of the Board. Thus giving him a bit more than General Manager power.

TheDon · 23-07-2011, 15:25

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Originally Posted by adzii_nufc

HHH is not the Raw general manager. In storyline he has Vince Mcmahon's job so he is the kayfabe Chairman of the Board. Thus giving him a bit more than General Manager power.

Indeed.
I'm interested to see what happens with the anonymous general manager though. They were bought in because of the threat from The Nexus, they couldn't attack an anonymous entity that might not even be in the building, and now that threat has disappeared it would be safe to bring back a normal GM.