A new flood of migrants ?

Well, you keep explaining what he means, so I assumed you were two minds thinking as (n)one.

Originally Posted by Gary L

To be fair that's not fair.
he actually said why should it be there human right to leech from a society they contribute (something)* ALL too ?

he meant the leecher migrants, not all migrants.

* edited

no he didn't ,in the context of the whole post he meant all migrants

yes, there should be a stricter justice system for them, e.g no matter the crime instant deportation
tax on income should be higher, they should have tax levied on transfer to bank accounts back home
they should require a sponsor to enter who should be held accountable for their actions

why should it be there human right to leech from a society they contribute **** ALL too ?

they perhaps should not ban them, just impose very very severe penalties finanicialy to the point they cant live, and they wont come, job done

you will note he makes no distinction whatsoever ,you should stop trying to defend the indefensible Gary ..it will give you a bad name

[Osem]

Originally Posted by danielf

Cheers for that!

Having lived in one of the top 10 countries, my perception of the UK benefits system is indeed anything but generous. In the Netherlands you're guaranteed a % of your last income (80% for the first, then 60% for the second year, at the time), provided you've worked for at least half a year (IIRC). Having said that, this is unemployment insurance, and the actual dole after your insurance runs out, is not so generous at ~700 Euros per month for a single person household.

Having said that, people are prepared to pay for this system through their taxation. Something I don't see the Brits approving of. Particularly since lower earners are more likely to use the safety net, and the system effectively means that higher earners subsidise lower earners.

It's a combination of things which makes the UK atractive for migrants, illegal or otherwise. Generosity in absolute cash terms is hard to assess and all relative, but what we have here are certain systems and benefits that are relatively easy to claim and easy to abuse (and that includes the indigenous population by the way). As has already been discussed, child benefit is one such benefit that can easily equate to an annual salary in certain E. European countries and the children don't even have to be living here. It's not a huge amount to you or I but a vast sum to these people and if they have kids it's automatic. The shambolic immigration system and the rights asylum seekers enjoy here also means that it's easy for people to overstay and disappear into the black economy. We know large numbers have done this and many overstay for years before they're caught so clearly the system isn't rigorous enough. Even when they're caught if they've married, had children etc. they will in all probability not be deported so yet again the system encourages people to break the rules and can be an easy touch.

It's not just the cash which makes any country attractive to migrants, it's how easily things can be obtained, what protections are offered, what support services there are, how easily they can disappear (in large cities like London for example) and/or get work, how effective the relevant border authorities are at doing their jobs, how rigorous the checks to avoid sham marriages, ID fraud and so on are etc. etc. We can compare ourseves with other countries until the cows come home but I don't see queues of migrants trying to get out of here or jumping out of their lorries in Europe so they don't wind up on the UK. These people often don't speak any English so for these people it's not even a common language which makes the UK appealing. I believe the combination of good, relatively easily obtained benefits/welfare and shambolic policing of immigration in general is what makes the UK a soft touch and that's not to deny that some migrants can have a very tough time here.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6702471.ece

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by martyh

no he didn't ,in the context of the whole post he meant all migrants



you will note he makes no distinction whatsoever

Well one of us must be reading it wrong then.

you should stop trying to defend the indefensible Gary ..it will give you a bad name

Right, ok. i'll keep out of it. but you won't hurt him much will you?

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Osem

It's a combination of things which makes the UK atractive for migrants, illegal or otherwise. Generosity in absolute cash terms is hard to assess and all relative, but what we have here are certain systems and benefits that are relatively easy to claim and easy to abuse (and that includes the indigenous population by the way). As has already been discussed, child benefit is one such benefit that can easily equate to an annual salary in certain E. European countries and the children don't even have to be living here. It's not a huge amount to you or I but a vast sum to these people and if they have kids it's automatic. The shambolic immigration system and the rights asylum seekers enjoy here also means that it's easy for people to overstay and disappear into the black economy. We know large numbers have done this and many overstay for years before they're caught so clearly the system isn't rigorous enough. Even when they're caught if they've married, had children etc. they will in all probability not be deported so yet again the system encourages people to break the rules and can be an easy touch.

It's not just the cash which makes any country attractive to migrants, it's how easily things can be obtained, what protections are offered, what support services there are, how easily they can disappear (in large cities like London for example) and/or get work, how effective the relevant border authorities are at doing their jobs, how rigorous the checks to avoid sham marriages are etc. etc. We can compare ourseves with other countries until the cows come home but I don't see queues of migrants trying to get out of here or jumping out of their lorries in Europe so they don't wind up on the UK. These people often don't speak any English so for these people it's not even a common language which makes the UK appealing. I believe the combination of good, relatively easily obtained benefits/welfare and shambolic policing of immigration in general is what makes the UK a soft touch.

Some good points there, (in particular child benefits, which really ought to be paid at a level commensurate with the standard of living in the country where the child lives) but it seems we are (once again) conflating legal migrants, illegal migrants and asylum seekers which all have differing rights (or lack thereof). Anyway, in a nutshell: These forums are awash with posts from people claiming that the UK is a soft touch where every tom, dick and harry can show up and we'll just throw money at them, when the reality is that the benefits system in the UK is pretty basic compared to many countries in continental Europe (as are, I should add the majority of public services). If things were bad economically in my home country, then a life on benefits in the UK definitely wouldn't be my first choice.

What's more, as was linked to earlier, Brits are excessively concerned about immigration compared to European counterparts with higher levels of immigration. Altogether, it's hard to escape the impression of a xenophobic lot of whinging POMs that simply want more for less money. There. I've said it

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Osem

It's a combination of things which makes the UK atractive for migrants, illegal or otherwise.

Good post, Osem.

makes a change to see someone else discussing the thing. instead of the usual asking of questions and analysis of ones mental state

[budwieser]

Originally Posted by danielf

Some good points there, (in particular child benefits, which really ought to be paid at a level commensurate with the standard of living in the country where the child lives) but it seems we are (once again) conflating legal migrants, illegal migrants and asylum seekers which all have differing rights (or lack thereof). Anyway, in a nutshell: These forums are awash with posts from people claiming that the UK is a soft touch where every tom, dick and harry can show up and we'll just throw money at them, when the reality is that the benefits system in the UK is pretty basic compared to many countries in continental Europe (as are, I should add the majority of public services). If things were bad economically in my home country, then a life on benefits in the UK definitely wouldn't be my first choice.

What's more, as was linked to earlier, Brits are excessively concerned about immigration compared to European counterparts with higher levels of immigration. Altogether, it's hard to escape the impression of a xenophobic lot of whinging POMs that simply want more for less money. There. I've said it

And which countries have a higher level of immigration than we do?

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by danielf

These forums are awash with posts from people claiming that the UK is a soft touch where every tom, dick and harry can show up and we'll just throw money at them, when the reality is that the benefits system in the UK is pretty basic compared to many countries in continental Europe (as are, I should add the majority of public services). If things were bad economically in my home country, then a life on benefits in the UK definitely wouldn't be my first choice.

But it's easier to get into the UK. and they might have family or friends already here waiting for them.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by budwieser

And which countries have a higher level of immigration than we do?

From post #10:

An international survey of eight European and North American countries finds that the British are easily the most hostile on the question of immigration and immigrants - even though five of the nations polled have a greater proportion of foreigners in their population.

According to the research commissioned by US and European think-tanks, people in the UK are much more likely to say there are "too many" immigrants than comparable nations. In Britain the figure is 59% compared to 27% in Germany and the Netherlands - both countries with a higher level of foreign-born residents.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport..._about_im.html

well according to the Eurostat figures (table 9) for 2006 which are the last year that figures are available it is

spain= 840,844
germany=661,855
UK =529,008

[danielf]

According to the survey quoted by Mark Easton (available here) the proportion of immigrants relative to total population in the 8 countries surveyed is as follows:

Canada: 20.2%
USA: 13.7%
Germany: 12.9%
Spain: 12.2%
Netherlands: 10.9%
UK: 10.8%
France: 8.4%
Italy: 7%

Originally Posted by danielf

What's more, as was linked to earlier, Brits are excessively concerned about immigration compared to European counterparts with higher levels of immigration. Altogether, it's hard to escape the impression of a xenophobic lot of whinging POMs that simply want more for less money. There. I've said it

Doesn't history account for some of that though.The European continent has been open for migration for far longer than Britain and it was easier since it is 1 land mass .We are an island nation and in past centuries mass migration usually equated to conquest or at least war ,maybe it's just a lingering effect of being an island nation used to having to protect itself ...or it could be that we are just a bunch of whinging poms wanting more for less ..as is our god given right i might add

---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 23:44 ----------

Originally Posted by danielf

According to the survey quoted by Mark Easton (available here) the proportion of immigrants relative to total population in the 8 countries surveyed is as follows:

Canada: 20.2%
USA: 13.7%
Germany: 12.9%
Spain: 12.2%
Netherlands: 10.9%
UK: 10.8%
France: 8.4%
Italy: 7%

whichever figures you look at (and those you supplied are probably more upto date) the UK is not top of the list for migration ,in fact comparing the 2 lists the UK has dropped a few places

[danielf]

Originally Posted by martyh

Doesn't history account for some of that though.The European continent has been open for migration for far longer than Britain and it was easier since it is 1 land mass .We are an island nation and in past centuries mass migration usually equated to conquest or at least war ,maybe it's just a lingering effect of being an island nation used to having to protect itself ...or it could be that we are just a bunch of whinging poms wanting more for less ..as is our god given right i might add

Well, isn't that xenophobia in a nutshell?

I should add that the copious amounts of red tops available and consumed by the discerning British public doesn't help either...

whichever figures you look at (and those you supplied are probably more upto date) the UK is not top of the list for migration ,in fact comparing the 2 lists the UK has dropped a few places

Yes, but the difference in perception is staggering. 59% percent of Britons say there are too many immigrants compared to 27% in Germany and The Netherlands. That's despite the fact that England (as opposed to the UK) has only recently overtaken The Netherlands in terms of population density. Population density in the UK is still considerably lower than it is in The Netherlands.

Originally Posted by Gary L

Good post, Osem.

makes a change to see someone else discussing the thing. instead of the usual asking of questions and analysis of ones mental state

You really don't get it, do you, Gary?

Osem made a measured post, with rationally put points and reasoned discourse - most people respect this sort of post, even if some disagree with the position.

You, on the the other, tend not to discuss things, and post such bon mots as

I hate migrants

High on bile, low on content.

Part of the point of forums (the discussing part) is asking/answering questions - I realise you have difficulty with the answering part, due to lack of intellectual rigour and perhaps an unfortunate willingness to embrace facts that don't adhere to your prejudices, but do try harder, there's a good lad....

btw, very few people discuss your mental developmental state any longer - it's fairly well established by your posts which part of the Bell Curve you are on; ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of, but you seem to revel in it.

[Gary L]

See what I mean about the usual analysis of ones mental state?

Hugh, if only you put as much effort into actually discussing the topic rather than the poster. we'd have a good debate.
I haven't seen much from you in that way. you skip the bits that you can debate on, and choose the parts where you can score points on.

and is that the 3rd time now you've quoted "I hate Migrants"?
I think everyone heard you the first time.

It just seems to me that if you don't like the 'opposing' view in any subject. you have these inane episodes.