Upstream Traffic Management Trial 1st of February

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Griffin

I can see that happening if bt infinity offers faster speeds than they do now

And how are they going to do that exactly?

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

And how are they going to do that exactly?

Either increase the rate limit - people have been synching at 80Mbit at 500m from cabinet before the rate limit is applied - or through pair bonding, most people have more than one pair going into their premises and VDSL supports bonding of multiple pairs.

Certainly for those within a reasonable distance of their cabinet 60/15 on a single pair and 120/30 on two is quite feasible.

EDIT: This ignores upcoming technologies such as vectoring, which is to be ready to roll this year, and phantom circuits.

300Mbps has been delivered at 400m using two pairs, 900Mbps at the same distance using four, 100Mbps over a couple of pairs at 1km.

[whizzard]

Originally Posted by Griffin

I can see that happening if bt infinity offers faster speeds than they do now

Of course, there would need to be a fairly widespread rollout Infinity before BT hit mass market penetration. Even in terms of phasing out ADSL Max in favour of WBC/21CN BT still have a long way to go

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Either increase the rate limit - people have been synching at 80Mbit at 500m from cabinet before the rate limit is applied - or through pair bonding, most people have more than one pair going into their premises and VDSL supports bonding of multiple pairs.

Certainly for those within a reasonable distance of their cabinet 60/15 on a single pair and 120/30 on two is quite feasible.

will they abandon their policy double line rental for pair bonding? if not I cant see much takeup on that.

---------- Post added at 21:49 ---------- Previous post was at 21:47 ----------

Originally Posted by whizzard

Of course, there would need to be a fairly widespread rollout Infinity before BT hit mass market penetration. Even in terms of phasing out ADSL Max in favour of WBC/21CN BT still have a long way to go

When I checked maps showing coverages of both providers it showed BT only currently cover about 20% of VM and by end of rollout will still be under 50%. So VM will still have weak competition in many areas anyway.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

will they abandon their policy double line rental for pair bonding? if not I cant see much takeup on that.

Crystal ball is broken - can only give the technologies and methods that might be used.

For what it's worth there is no need to apply a policy of double line rental as the line won't be going back to the exchange just to the cabinet.

Of course, this is dependent on Ofcom not being total bumholes which is unlikely. They'll likely insist on full line rental being charged in the name of equivalence of access, competition, etc, as BT serving a second loop to a home purely for a VDSL signal would be horribly anti-competitive and market distorting. Isn't like we don't already have more LLU than anywhere else in Europe.

[qasdfdsaq]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Either increase the rate limit - people have been synching at 80Mbit at 500m from cabinet before the rate limit is applied - or through pair bonding, most people have more than one pair going into their premises and VDSL supports bonding of multiple pairs.

Certainly for those within a reasonable distance of their cabinet 60/15 on a single pair and 120/30 on two is quite feasible.

EDIT: This ignores upcoming technologies such as vectoring, which is to be ready to roll this year, and phantom circuits.

300Mbps has been delivered at 400m using two pairs, 900Mbps at the same distance using four, 100Mbps over a couple of pairs at 1km.

I thought you said thanks to ANFP BT weren't getting more than ~60-80mbps in the lab?

Still, if I could get the likes of 120/30 from Be or another network with the quality of Be's I'd be all over it even if it cost 3x more than VM's service.

[linwelin]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

People go with it for a very simple reason.

30Mb for £18.50
50Mb for £25
100Mb for £35.

It's cheap, has big numbers by the speeds, that sucks most people in.

huh i think you miss read my post, i was not complaining about the new speeds, but the upload traffic management.

[BenMcr]

I think the point is the majority of people are more concerned with price and headline speed for broadband.

If they were concerned about traffic management and capacity you would be paying a lot more than £35 for 100Mbit!

[Traduk]

You are right inasmuch as it is a mass market product using the "stack it high and sell it cheap principles". Unfortunately to achieve the mass market objectives there are constraints concealed within the service which make the service seriously limited but the masses may never notice or be sophisticated enough to realise that quality is poor.

During the farce of dealing with VM re; the 30meg upgrade I was determined not to be placed under contract and achieved that objective. The reason was that VM are persistently looking for ways to get a quart out of a pint pot and breaking usability.

Sure enough after a few days of liaising with the IT specialists of a massively expensive service, I subscribe to, it is evident that VM are dropping established ports after a time of inactivity. VM have broken one of my primary reasons for having the internet but fortunately my ADSL is not broken in any shape or form and never will be according to the ISP.

The new not so Superhub has not caused these problem as logs showed the problem from the beginning of February (several days before the new Superhub).

I have seen a post in over threads re; "keep alive". It is not the Superhub, its in the system.

In its current state VM's service is interfering with my usability of the network and for my part the rapidly approaching local uplift to FTTC via my current quality ISP can not come soon enough.

Your reply points towards "you get what you pay for" and you are right but at some historic points in time VM offered both price and quality concurrently. Quality is sliding, price is cheap and before long it will warrant the usual adjective that goes with cheap and ....

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by linwelin

huh i think you miss read my post, i was not complaining about the new speeds, but the upload traffic management.

What Ben said. My point was that it's cheap and the headline speed is high. People go with the restrictions because of that.

[qasdfdsaq]

Most people don't know or don't care what speed they're getting as long as it works. Even some of the techy geeks and comp-sci graduates I know weren't aware they were getting 1/3rd the speed they were paying for till I pointed it out to them.

As long as the average consumer continues to accept shaping and throttling and slowness as "that's just the way it is" companies will continue to get away with providing it.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

As long as the average consumer continues to accept shaping and throttling and slowness as "that's just the way it is" companies will continue to get away with providing it.

*sigh*

What the average consumer will accept is the reason we are in the position we are in

The consumer wanted cheaper prices, so market forces gave them cheaper prices.

The consumers wanted faster speeds, so market forces gave them faster speeds

You cannot do both of these at the same time without something else giving way

And before you say 'well Virgin didn't have to follow', yes they did, or they would have gone bust. You cannot be a niche broadband provider with a network that cost billions to build - you have to target the mainstream market

[qasdfdsaq]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

*sigh*

What the average consumer will accept is the reason we are in the position we are in

The consumer wanted cheaper prices, so market forces gave them cheaper prices.

The consumers wanted faster speeds, so market forces gave them faster speeds

You cannot do both of these at the same time without something else giving way

*sigh*

[linwelin]

Be broadband seem to manage it quite well, this is just Virgin compensating for over subscribing.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by linwelin

Be broadband seem to manage it quite well, this is just Virgin compensating for over subscribing.

'Be' have nowhere near Virgin's broadband customer base.