[Update] ALL 20>30Mb upgrade discussion

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Blackened

Is that from the horses mouth Masque? Retentions have been told not to allow something which is in their remit specifically for this product?

I always find Retentions to be very flexable particular if they've just been bombarded for over a week with hundreds of calls and any "rules" soon get changed. As always with these things, timing matters.

It's like with TIVO, I upgraded my telephone to XL recently, even though I didn't want to, to get the tivo deal. If the deal turns out to be I have to pay £199 for it, it's goodbye VM. I've have yet to hear of a situation where VM will lose a customer of over 20 years over £100. But I guess there's always a first time! And I don't expect to pay a £100 "activation" fee either. I have my nice friendly Scottish retentions bloke on speedial all ready and waiting. If that doesn't work, I have another number to use and that is always very effective.

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

Unlikely. Any 20mb users with a Superhub will only have got them in the last couple months or so, which means they will still be in contract..

I've never signed a contract or agreed to one on the phone and got a free superhub just before Christmas with the obvious pre-knowledge of the impending upgrade to 30mb.

The last contract and only contract I signed with the cable company was back in 1991 and I have no intention of signing another.

I'm generally quite critical of VM on forums, but one thing I have always found is that when push comes to shove, the cableco will look after its best customers, unlike SKy or BT. Just takes a bit of pushing and shoving to get there sometimes, that's all.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Horizon

I've never signed a contract or agreed to one on the phone and got a free superhub just before Christmas with the obvious pre-knowledge of the impending upgrade to 30mb.

The last contract and only contract I signed with the cable company was back in 1991 and I have no intention of signing another.

You do not need to physically sign a contract because by virtue of you agreeing to pay the bill each month you have accepted the Terms and Conditions of whatever deal you go for, so if you upgrade to 30Mb and you start paying and the is a 12 month minimum contract then you are now in contract.

[Horizon]

Total rubbish. Unless you are made aware of T&Cs and agree to them, there is no contract unless VM want to break the law - and things like this have been tested in court so there is case law on it too.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Total rubbish. Unless you are made aware of T&Cs and agree to them, there is no contract unless VM want to break the law - and things like this have been tested in court so there is case law on it too.

You pay for the agreed services you are in contract because by paying for them you have agreed to the Terms and Conditions, so not rubbish and Benmcr will tell you the same.

Do you really think that a company would leave themselves open to abuse in this way, if you upgrade it will go down as a new contract on your account and in your notes and I do see this in customers notes everyday.

You pay the bill so that is your acceptance and you are unlikely to challenge that in court.

The Terms and Conditions are available for anyone to read and a court of law will not accept the excuse "Sorry I never read them".

[Horizon]

A contract is an agreement by two parties, for that contract to be enforceable in a court of law it has to be agreed by both parties. Paying a bill does not automatically roll you into a contract unless you have agreed to it. Companies can have whatever T&Cs they want, the law of the land overalls all of that.

Masque - we'll agree to disagree. I know call centres are taught this stuff, I've experienced them all!

[qasdfdsaq]

Originally Posted by Blackened

Well, no news there really. New customers have always got the better deal - 'excuse' being they're entering into a new 12 month contract. I think upgrading to 30 from 20 and getting a superhub I would ordinarily have to pay £75 for, all in for £30 one-off is pretty good if you look at it relatively. I'd rather be getting it for free, don't get me wrong, but I'm not going to let it go for that price. And I bet they love people like me!

Well I suppose if there's no new contract involved (yet to be confirmed) then it might be slightly better. Still, given the option you'd be better off disconnecting and reconnecting than staying with them.

From what I've heard VM's retentions seem to be far more stubborn and less flexible than various competitors when it comes to discounting deals.

[Horizon]

....it all depends on what deals you've had in the past and what you're on now. In comparison to BT or Sky, I find VM to be the most flexible, but to each his own.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Horizon

A contract is an agreement by two parties, for that contract to be enforceable in a court of law it has to be agreed by both parties. Paying a bill does not automatically roll you into a contract unless you have agreed to it. Companies can have whatever T&Cs they want, the law of the land overalls all of that.

Masque - we'll agree to disagree. I know call centres are taught this stuff, I've experienced them all!

If you ring up as ask to be upgraded and they say yes sir we can do that do you want to go ahead, and you say yes and then proceed to pay for your services then you have accepted the contract and it does actually stand up in a court of law.

[Horizon]

We'll agree to disagree Masque.

I look forward to a court case where VM is suing a customer for breach of contract, when they've never signed or agreed to be bound by one. There's never been a court case yet and there never will be.

Saying "upgrade me" is not the same as saying "yes, I'll abide by new T&Cs". For it to be enforceable, VM must state there are new contract terms on the phone at the point of sale.

The only places where I find the call centres do it properly are for car insurance where they specifically state that you are entering into a new contract/new t&cs.

[qasdfdsaq]

Originally Posted by Horizon

A contract is an agreement by two parties, for that contract to be enforceable in a court of law it has to be agreed by both parties. Paying a bill does not automatically roll you into a contract unless you have agreed to it. Companies can have whatever T&Cs they want, the law of the land overalls all of that.

Masque - we'll agree to disagree. I know call centres are taught this stuff, I've experienced them all!

Your contract already states if you take any new/upgraded services you automatically accept any minimum term imposed on them. You don't have to agree to a new contract, your existing contract already covers this. As long as you're still paying for services, you still have a contract.

The fact that you signed it 20 or 200 years ago is irrelevant, it is still valid and remains valid until you cancel all your services permanantly in writing. Your contract does not last as long as the 12 month minimum term. The contract remains active in perpetuity as long as you continue to pay for and receive services.

Oh, and don't forget the contract also says VM is allowed to change any part of the contract they want without having to tell you, and you're deemed to have automatically accepted the changes if you don't write to cancel within 30 days.

---------- Post added at 15:24 ---------- Previous post was at 15:23 ----------

Originally Posted by Horizon

....it all depends on what deals you've had in the past and what you're on now. In comparison to BT or Sky, I find VM to be the most flexible, but to each his own.

Well all I've seen on these forums is VM offering a similar price that new customers get to existing ones, or at most knocking 10%-20% off their bill. O2 offered to knock 50% off mine, and CPW at one point gave me a £780 credit on my bill for 12 months of free service.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

Your contract already states if you take any new/upgraded services you automatically accept any minimum term imposed on them. .

But my 20 year old contract does not say that.

[qasdfdsaq]

Originally Posted by Horizon

But my 20 year old contract does not say that.

But it probably does say somewhere they can change the terms in the contract, and if you don't cancel you're deemed to have agreed to the changes.

Well tbh, I don't know, I wasn't in any position to read or sign contracts 20 years ago, so maybe they left that bit out but most likely there's something along those lines.

[Nopanic]

Originally Posted by Blackened

Yeah, whatever.
It's just you have something of a penchant for nit-picky digs which tend to send a thread off into squabbling. Having a go at a corporate massive's printed and published material which should be tick perfect is fine in my book. Challenging someone's grammar on an internet forum as a retort is puerile and has been for as long as I can remember..

[muvo2020]

sorry horizon, masque is right... its just bit frustrating hearing you shutting down masque's factual and right answers so quickly based upon what? Unless you have done the 12months or whatever your first agreement was and your out of contract, but accept any equipment or new service weather an upgrade or not, it becomes legally binding. Just because it may say some where technically a contract is agreed by 2 party. You as one party using services and VM is second party supplying services, you are bound by the T & C which by law of the land also confirms your in a contract. To disbelieve other wise based on knowledge from the net and various case law would be silly. Look at it in a same way as they send you an ADVERT through your door and that is called an invitation to treat, you ring them and accept that offer... it becomes legally binding. The only way the court would decide in a customers favour is by looking at there financial services, the incomings and outgoings and who did what to break the CONTRACT. other wise the court will decide in favour of VM. even before court though your looking at couple months of hassle from VM, then debt collectors, then settlement just before court, then court summons, then court... which all in all could take several months. To believe your not in contract would be foolish on your part... just because you didn't actually say the words of sign anything to begin with. Upgrade or accept any equipment and 99% your in a new contract or an extended one, use there service for contact length and never ask for equipment or upgrade and your remain out of contract. Sorry mate but end of... Google or wiki or .gov will not help you out on that. be wise and dont be a fool to believe your not in a contract based upon what i wrote above.

This coming from a person in contract and employment Law.

[Horizon]

.....good, you work in contract law. So there must be at least one case where a utility/telecoms company has successfully sued a person and won, for cancelling said contract when the person never agreed to a new contract. Please provide details.

Make sure you look in all the Halsburys, all the precedents, all the appeal cases etc. A lexis search might be a "bit" quicker. Then please provide the case and reference number for said case.