Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by martyh

Don't you think that we have tried the softly softly approach and it hasn't worked ,even made things worse

Since when have we tried a softy softy approach?

every post shows you more and more out of touch.

The benefit system has used the stick approach as long as I have been alive.

The sad thing is the effort put into this by this government.

The cost to the taxpayer is almost nothing compared to what the banks have cost us, and also a fraction of tax lost to tax avoidance.

---------- Post added at 20:21 ---------- Previous post was at 20:19 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Problem is though that system wasn't working ,this system will have the benefit of stopping people working on the black market and claiming benefit ,it will get people back into the routine of getting up and working ,and it will make people realise that the good old days of the state supporting you for life are over

Why do you think it wasnt working.

Most people who claim JSA are short term only and find work.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

This country treats benefit claimants worse than criminals now.

How they going to deal with the problem they breaching min wage.

£65 for 30 hours work.

1 - why is it only manual work, not office work etc.
2 - what happens if they have job interviews or other work related activity during these hours.
3 - is it better than slavery where slavery typically gave you a place to sleep, food, drink etc.

I think office work will be done by those that are fit for work (there's a joke in itself) but not able to do manual labour jobs.

regarding food and drink. I think they'll probably have to provide that too. as I said whilst doing this work they'll be under the governments care, so feeding them will be a priority.

[QUOTE=Chrysalis;35119574]
#3 isnt ridicolous but does show you dont really care of the consequences as it isnt you right.

#1 manual labour quoted numerous times.
#2 you can imagine what you want.

and no its just £65, if they refuse to do it, they lose the £65 but dont lose the rest.
QUOTE]

I take it you have inside information then ,because the government haven't released the details yet ,what most people are commenting on is newspaper speculation and hype ...hense all the hysteria

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by martyh

so how would you tackle workshy claimants ,or long term unemployed .Since both you and MR A have poo pooed the idea i would think you have a better solution ,or is it just a case of the government suggested so lets slag it off

first I would ignore all the propoganda that makes it seem worse than it is. Then I would either write it off as a unsolvable problem or increase the gap from the dole and paid work by making housing benefit more generous when working full time.

I would likely cut back on child related benefits.

The ultimate way to fix long term unemployment is to reduce competition in the job market, increase the number of jobs to the unemployed. So less immigration, less outsourcing, give companies incentives to locate in poorer areas outside of south east and london areas. I would make tax evasion a more serious concern and look at tax avoidance, I would shift tax income from consumption taxes towards income taxes, increase income taxes, give focused health care to people on incapacity benefit, create public sector jobs for people who have partial ability to work, greatly increase regulation in banking, regulate the housing market, I wouldnt pretend the long term unemployed are the countries biggest problem and have it in the news every week.

---------- Post added at 20:30 ---------- Previous post was at 20:29 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

#3 isnt ridicolous but does show you dont really care of the consequences as it isnt you right.

#1 manual labour quoted numerous times.
#2 you can imagine what you want.

and no its just £65, if they refuse to do it, they lose the £65 but dont lose the rest.
QUOTE]

I take it you have inside information then ,because the government haven't released the details yet ,what most people are commenting on is newspaper speculation and hype ...hense all the hysteria

no I just read news reports properly and research.

---------- Post added at 20:35 ---------- Previous post was at 20:30 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

I really can't see this being aimed at the genuinely sick or disabled. I can see it being aimed at those who'd rather not work if they can avoid it. Whether or not it's workable in practice is another thing however.

This is aimed at exactly them.

What this doesnt tell you?

1 - currently we have a new biased work capability aseessment pushing ill people on to job seekers allowance or rather work part of ESA.
2 - very soon starting 2011 every incapacity benefit will start been reassessed on this new assessment and a big chunk of them will be pushed onto the work related ESA (dole), so basically we will have long term sick classed as long term dole claimants.
3 - these people are the least likely to find work so are the most likely who will be affected by this.

If you think the new work capability assessment is accurate and fair then you have too much faith in government.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by martyh

oooooh look more histeria ,

actually it's £65+HB(if living away from home)+council tax benefit +free prescriptions +ect ect

But what about those that only claim the minimum of £65 and none of the extras? you seem to be saying that the hours worked make up for the extra money, but what about the others?

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

first I would ignore all the propoganda that makes it seem worse than it is. .

But you compared it to was slavery ..yeh way to ignore the propoganda

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by martyh

well i don't want my taxes to go up to support people who don't want to work ,and i wouldn't say i'm self serving ,i would however support my taxes going up if it guaranteed a better road network ,better public transport ,better health care ,better pensions ect.
What you fail to realise is that being on the dole is only supposed to be temporary (allowing for varying job market circumstances)it is not meant to be a way of life ,the government are attempting to make being on the dole unapealing so as to encourage people to try to find work ,most claimants are happy to play ball they will not by and large be affected by the new proposals the ones who seek to live a cosy cushy life on the dole will and about bloody time too i say

rather I meant your taxes would go up if the council had to pay people a living wage to do the work.

---------- Post added at 20:39 ---------- Previous post was at 20:37 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

But you compared it to was slavery ..yeh way to ignore the propoganda

I think you have a blinkered view of slavery.

roman slavery was actually not too bad, slaves had good relations with their masters and had a good life, a better life than one would get from this.

even if a working wage was paid I wouldnt like the idea but at least then they would be getting a wage for what they doing, then it would have more chance of doing some good because they would have a taste of more money.

[QUOTE=Gary L;35119592]But what about those that only claim the minimum of £65 and none of the extras? you seem to be saying that the hours worked make up for the extra money, but what about the others?[/QUOTE]


yes gary ,they will have a good incentive to go find a job won't they

It's going to be impossible to have a "one system fits all" ,i believe the last labour government tried that and strangely enough it didn't work that's one of the reasons why we are reduced to such measures now

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

no I just read news reports properly and research.
.

but at the moment the news reports are mostly speculation because the government hasn't released any final details .There may well be some accuracy in the reports but without any details how the scheme will work in practice is just hype and speculation ,i notice that none of the papers who have reported this have mentioned the extra money claimants will get on completion of said scheme

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

even if a working wage was paid I wouldnt like the idea but at least then they would be getting a wage for what they doing, then it would have more chance of doing some good because they would have a taste of more money.

Good point. what's the point of having them working for an employer or a business, when they might have resentment for having to be there in the first place?

are they going to determine your £65 at the end of the week by not only your attendance, but your attitude and behaviour too?

[Arthurgray50@blu]

Lets look at it this way, the government want the unemployed to go round sweeping the streets, picking up litter, and doing voluntary work to get there benefits or it will be stopped.

Has anyone thought, have they committed a crime for being out of work, therefore the unemployed are being punished for not having a job.

If l am not wrong, don't criminals have to do this type of work as part of community payback via the courts, maybe the criminals are NOT doing this work, therefore the government are forcing the unemployed to do the work, as they cannot force the criminals to do it.

[alferret]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

Bit of a snip!!!!

If l am not wrong, don't criminals have to do this type of work as part of community payback via the courts, maybe the criminals are NOT doing this work, therefore the government are forcing the unemployed to do the work, as they cannot force the criminals to do it.

Yea but the difference is the crims dont get paid.

I for one applaud the efforts of the current coalition to get the scrounging dole dossing money grabbing barstewards off their fat paid for by us back sides.

Why should I graft my nadds off to survive when these low life, free loading parasites have far more than what I have.
I pay my taxes & my dues and the **** that extract the urine get a free go at life. Sod them all and their ideals, well done to the current thinking.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by alferret

Yea but the difference is the crims dont get paid.

I for one applaud the efforts of the current coalition to get the scrounging dole dossing money grabbing barstewards off their fat paid for by us back sides.

Why should I graft my nadds off to survive when these low life, free loading parasites have far more than what I have.
I pay my taxes & my dues and the **** that extract the urine get a free go at life. Sod them all and their ideals, well done to the current thinking.

Are you talking about all of them that are unemployed? do you think the 12 months should be lowered to say 2 weeks to be eligible to go on the 30 day work scheme?

[alferret]

Originally Posted by Gary L

Are you talking about all of them that are unemployed? do you think the 12 months should be lowered to say 2 weeks to be eligible to go on the 30 day work scheme?

I'll quote my post & highlight the bits you may have missed. Just for you Gary.

Originally Posted by alferret

Yea but the difference is the crims dont get paid.

I for one applaud the efforts of the current coalition to get the scrounging dole dossing money grabbing barstewards off their fat paid for by us back sides.

Why should I graft my nadds off to survive when these low life, free loading parasites have far more than what I have.
I pay my taxes & my dues and the **** that extract the urine get a free go at life. Sod them all and their ideals, well done to the current thinking.

The bits in bold outline my feelings Gary, not those that have lost their jobs due to the recession, who have fallen on hard times because of redundancies but the long term oiks who think its a career to sign on.

**edit**

I know its difficult for you at times to understand opinions that differ from yours, but I'm afraid its how I feel.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by alferret

The bits in bold outline my feelings Gary, not those that have lost their jobs due to the recession, who have fallen on hard times because of redundancies but the long term oiks who think its a career to sign on.

But it's all those that have been signing on for 12 months or more that have to do the 30 day work thing. that's why now I think you probably didn't know that.

---------- Post added at 22:04 ---------- Previous post was at 22:02 ----------

Originally Posted by alferret

I know its difficult for you at times to understand opinions that differ from yours, but I'm afraid its how I feel.

No worries, mate.

[alferret]

Originally Posted by Gary L

But it's all those that have been signing on for 12 months or more that have to do the 30 day work thing. that's why now I think you probably didn't know that.

Sorry I didnt realise I had to go through every possible permutation of unemployment to appease your thoughts on how I may think or what I may know.

Look at it this way. Someone has been out of work for 12 months & they get the call to do "free" work in the community. That person may have been a high flyer at one point and now gets to do something constructive, and that may change that persons outlook as to what work he would take. so instead of sitting back waiting for that high flying job to drop in his lap he may look differently upon life and take something for minimum wage but more fore-filling.

My issue is with the free loaders, if it means that others have to do the work so be it. Life is not all about screwing the system and its nice to see some payback.