Multiculturalism - Angela Merkel's view

[SMG]

Immigrants do feel the need to "Stay with their own", hence the groups of people who live in the same area, & its fine to continue with their own cultures etc, but any immigrant should learn the language of his or her adopted country.

I fail to see why some immigrants feel the need to try & change our customs, ways & laws, to conform with their native country. Why leave in the first place?

Ah............Benefits, I forgot.

Originally Posted by SMG

Immigrants do feel the need to "Stay with their own", hence the groups of people who live in the same area, & its fine to continue with their own cultures etc

Although this is understandable Human behaviour. Look abroad at Spain to see English communities, people stay with their own and in this area there is a high prevalence of English pubs, food, papers and so on.

[j52c]

Going back a bit but when I was in my early teens and going to Grammar School, there was another boy who went with me, he lived just a few houses away, his father was English and his mother German, she would not speak english either in or outside her home, she didn't go to the local shops, she always sent her son.

As I got older I spent some time in Germany in association with my work, I met this young girl and when it became time for me to return home she came with me. Not long after we got married and we still are to this day, married now for 38 years. My wife speaks with a perfect Derbyshire accent, infact, the only time there is the slightest hint of her previous language is when she gets a little upset. It also takes her a little time to get back into the German language when we go over there to visit her remaining family.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by SMG

Immigrants do feel the need to "Stay with their own", hence the groups of people who live in the same area, & its fine to continue with their own cultures etc, but any immigrant should learn the language of his or her adopted country.

I fail to see why some immigrants feel the need to try & change our customs, ways & laws, to conform with their native country. Why leave in the first place?

Ah............Benefits, I forgot.

"Benefits" come in many guises - not least natural resources.

As an ex squaddie you'll be only too well aware that England, together with other countries such as France & Germany, in the past saw no harm in seeking to take / taking over countries, exploiting their "benefits" and forcing the natural indigenous inhabitants to conform to their ideals, language and cultural quirks.

What is happing now is merely an extrapolation of that very same process although now that the shoe is on the other foot, for want of a better euphemism, some people are getting overly upset.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

"Benefits" come in many guises - not least natural resources.

As an ex squaddie you'll be only too well aware that England, together with other countries such as France & Germany, in the past saw no harm in seeking to take / taking over countries, exploiting their "benefits" and forcing the natural indigenous inhabitants to conform to their ideals, language and cultural quirks.

What is happing now is merely an extrapolation of that very same process although now that the shoe is on the other foot, for want of a better euphemism, some people are getting overly upset.

The difference though between then and now is hopefully society has moved on and countries don't take over other countries and enslave the population ,what we do now is give various peoples a lifeline via immigration/asylum so that they can live in a better country without fear of being beaten ,raped or killed ,and don't forget that every single immigrant or asylum seeker is doing it on their own free will .We are not forcing anybody to come here or go to france ,germany,ect ,so yes they should embrace our culture,learn our language as well as bringing their own culture

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by martyh

The difference though between then and now is hopefully society has moved on and countries don't take over other countries and enslave the population ,what we do now is give various peoples a lifeline via immigration/asylum so that they can live in a better country without fear of being beaten ,raped or killed ,and don't forget that every single immigrant or asylum seeker is doing it on their own free will .We are not forcing anybody to come here or go to france ,germany,ect ,so yes they should embrace our culture,learn our language as well as bringing their own culture

Obviously it's no different.

A proportion of the indigenous population of the UK, as evidenced by some posting in this thread, have a NIMBY approach to the issue. Contrary to your assertion people resident in the UK, whether by birth, immigration or for the purposes of asylum, are still prone to being beaten, raped or killed and that is a sad fact.

Yes, the vast majority of immigrants come here of their own free will which is why it is somewhat morally reprehensible, given the history as outlined in my previous post combined with Englands long held jockeying as the democratic centre of the universe, for others to seek to impose their will / culture upon those who do so.

To assert that "we are not forcing anybody to come here" is a somewhat disjointed position to adopt. Likewise I very much doubt that anybody willingly "forced" England or France to come and invade their country during the days of the Empire / colonies.

I'd suggest that many of those displaced from theatres where the UK military is active / has an asylum agreement have by proxy been faced with what in reality is a forced relocation to the UK where the alternative is to live in a war zone.

You'll find that immigrants or asylum seekers needing to learn your, or France's, culture is a rather moot point since most of them are already familiar with same courtesy of a past built on colonialism and empire building.

As Santayana is credited with saying "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

[Hom3r]

I have no problem with immigration, but if you move to a new country you should learn the language, rules and culture.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Obviously it's no different.

A proportion of the indigenous population of the UK, as evidenced by some posting in this thread, have a NIMBY approach to the issue. Contrary to your assertion people resident in the UK, whether by birth, immigration or for the puropses of asylum, are still prone to being beaten, raped or killed and that is a sad fact.

I would suggest that the risk of rape ,beatings or death is somewhat lessened though
I accept that some of the NIMBY attitude is down to pure racism but would you not agree that some of the attitude is down to the perceived idea that immigration is forced on the receiving nation ,i don't ever remember increasing immigration numbers being part of the labour or conservatives election pledges

To assert that "we are not forcing anybody to come here" is a somewhat disjointed position to adopt. Likewise I very much doubt that anybody willingly "forced" England or France to come and invade their country during the days of the Empire / colonies.

The point is though that any immigrant/asylum seeker chooses to come here or any major euro country either to escape a war zone,as you say ,or simply for a better way of life ,either way it is a choice (granted in the case of asylum seekers not much of a choice but still a choice).I think i am correct in saying that GB has recognized it's responsibilities post empire by allowing immigrants from ex colonies and not just abandoning them .We have and still are providing a haven for many ex British colonies

As Santayana is credited with saying "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

Whole heartedly agree with that sentiment ,but we should be carefull of accepting mass imigration as "retribution " or "revenge" for us invading their country during our empire building days .I am firmly of the opinion that our empire benefited many of the countries that we claimed,yes there were some bad points namely slavery and similar, but as with all of history the world has benefited as a whole from every empire from the Romans right through to the British Empire

Originally Posted by martyh

I think i am correct in saying that GB has recognized it's responsibilities post empire by allowing immigrants from ex colonies and not just abandoning them .We have and still are providing a haven for many ex British colonies

That is a fair point, however, to take one example, the influx of 'Asian' families holding 'British' passports following the independence of Kenya, Nigeria & Hong Kong, has arguably benefited the UK.

Some of those families have been responsible for the steady growth of local 'convenience store' shopping, for example.

Sadly I'm old enough to remember a time when such shops opening past 5pm were a rarity in the week & Sundays you were lucky if the newsagent stayed open longer than was necessary to get the papers delivered.

The establishment of the 'ethnic minority' run shop changed all that - i.e. not all immigrants came here for the handouts ?

Originally Posted by gazfan

That is a fair point, however, to take one example, the influx of 'Asian' families holding 'British' passports following the independence of Kenya, Nigeria & Hong Kong, has arguably benefited the UK.

Some of those families have been responsible for the steady growth of local 'convenience store' shopping, for example.

Sadly I'm old enough to remember a time when such shops opening past 5pm were a rarity in the week & Sundays you were lucky if the newsagent stayed open longer than was necessary to get the papers delivered.

The establishment of the 'ethnic minority' run shop changed all that - i.e. not all immigrants came here for the handouts ?

I agree ,most immigrants have and do benefit this country ,and sadly i too am old enough to remember british corner shops that shut a 5 and halfday on Wednesday .
I think it's only been in recent years that the perception of immigrants and asylum seekers being a drain on society has been an issue ,fueled by the media because they are an easy target , more so i think since the russian empire crumbled

Originally Posted by martyh

I agree ,most immigrants have and do benefit this country ,and sadly i too am old enough to remember british corner shops that shut a 5 and halfday on Wednesday .
I think it's only been in recent years that the perception of immigrants and asylum seekers being a drain on society has been an issue ,fueled by the media because they are an easy target , more so i think since the russian empire crumbled

That is an interesting point re USSR - I must look into that more before replying

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by SMG

Immigrants do feel the need to "Stay with their own", hence the groups of people who live in the same area, & its fine to continue with their own cultures etc, but any immigrant should learn the language of his or her adopted country.

That's where multiculturalism fails, ghettoising people is not some thing to be proud of, racial integration would be a far more worthy goal imo

[TheNorm]

Originally Posted by Stuart

I did read that as well, but I still believe that if anyone is going to live in a country they should make every effort to learn the language of that country. As much for the practical purpose of dealing with the local population as any need to fit in with their customs. After all, wherever you live, you need to buy food..

How would that work in practice? A language test while your passport is being checked? Or would you have to book an appointment at an "English-speaking test centre" to get an "English-speaking licence"? Would this rule apply to everyone - indigenous or not?

As much for the practical purpose of dealing with the local population as any need to fit in with their customs. After all, wherever you live, you need to buy food..

I can go to the supermarket on a Saturday afternoon and buy food for the week without needing to speak to anyone.

[Pierre]

It's quite simple,

Immigration does work. Multiculturilism doesn't.

Muslims and Eastern Europeans are quite simply the latest in a long line of fairly recent immigration spikes into this country.

They follow the Irish, Afro-Caribbeans, and Indian immigrants that all have comeinto the country in the couple of hundred years, the last two in the latter half of the 20th Century.

However, those immigrations were nothing on the scale of the recent immigration influx. There is no way the recent immigration influx could assimilate into the UK.

And they I'm not talking about about assimilating facelessly into the UK population. The immigration masses should still be able to retain their identity but be accepted and eventually become part of, and add to, the fabric of the country.

e.g one of the most famous Rugby clubs in the South is London Irish, Curry is our national dish etc.

The UK population is happy to embrace change as long as it not dropped on them like a bomb.

The last governments open door policy is what has caused the problem and is one of the reasons for such tensions between communities.

The flood needs to be a trickle ans it needs to be from now on.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

"Benefits" come in many guises - not least natural resources.

As an ex squaddie you'll be only too well aware that England, together with other countries such as France & Germany, in the past saw no harm in seeking to take / taking over countries, exploiting their "benefits" and forcing the natural indigenous inhabitants to conform to their ideals, language and cultural quirks.

What is happing now is merely an extrapolation of that very same process although now that the shoe is on the other foot, for want of a better euphemism, some people are getting overly upset.

That may be true, we also used slaves & had barbaric laws, all of which are now outdated & in the past. This problem is here, now, the problems need to be adressed, saying well we did it, wont solve anything.

My point regarding benefits are simple, if someone in Afganistan, Iraq, Iran, is in danger & seeks asylum, why travel through several "safe" european countries, just to get here? The obvious answer is, Britain is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

---------- Post added at 13:10 ---------- Previous post was at 13:08 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

It's quite simple,

Immigration does work. Multiculturilism doesn't.

The UK population is happy to embrace change as long as it not dropped on them like a bomb.

The flood needs to be a trickle ans it needs to be from now on.

Agreed.