Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11525031

Business Secretary Vince Cable has given the government's approval to a report calling for an unlimited level of tuition fees for students.

Other possible changes include charging proper interest on the loans, at the moment they are linked to inflation only. As well as increasing the earning cap at which you start to pay the loans from the current £15,000 a year to £21,000 a year.

The interest in particular is a pretty mean policy if they go though with it. People have pointed out that it will favor those who earn more faster, after all someone receiving £100,000 a year will pay back the loan considerably faster than someone at £20,000 a year due to being charged less interest.

Now I was for the current system. Uni is expensive and students should probably have to pay for some of it. However these changes are absurd.

[Mr_love_monkey]

Once again the government is going to penalise people that work hard and do well.

Work hard, get a good degree, get a good job, we're going to tax you even more!

Perhaps they should look more at the courses the universities offer - and get rid of some of the more pointless degrees - maybe then it would stop people flooding the universities when they have to acutally (shock! horror!) work for their degree, and have more than 2 hours a week lectures.

This system is basically going to allow people to go to uni for three years, spend their time drinking (which I have no issue with, that's part of uni life) - but not actually do any work, and walk away with a 3rd or a pass - meaning their salary never hits the magic amount where they need to pay it back - whilst anyone who did actually go to university to better themselves is going to be paying through the nose.

[Peter_]

All the people in favour of these changes within the government have already studied for their degrees and have not had to pay back any fees but are now favour charging the children of tomorrow fees that they may never be able to afford let alone pay back, are we now going forward into the realm of education only for the rich which will make a degree an elitist symbol of money.

So once these fees come into place we will have an education system that only caters for the people who can afford it, how many bright minds from the poorer areas of Britain will this snuff out as they realise that unless their parents win the lottery their dreams will lie in tatters.

The worst case scenario is if you stay within the £20,000 to £30,000 band. The interest will kick in at that point but you'll be paying it back so slowly it would be hard to pay it back at all!

Again. They haven't committed to charging Interest though.

[Peter_]

The interest rate they mentioned is 2.2% above the base rate if it becomes law.

[frogstamper]

Politically this puts the LD's in a very difficult position seeing as their MP's signed a public pledge to fight against increasing tuition fees, I really don't think they can get away with the old chestnut, that in a coalition compromises have to be made, that one is trotted out by Cleggy each time his in a difficult position.
I'm sure the likes of Bob Russell and other principled LD MP's will stick to their manifesto pledge and campaign against Brown's proposals, unlike Vince and Nick who seem to have thrown key pre-election pledges out the window once they become politically difficult.
I've no doubt that many LD MP's owe their seats to students who would have voted for them primarily on this issue, I've got a feeling the referendum on AV could well become a large stick for disaffected voters looking to punish the LD's.

I'm so angry I can't discuss this rationally..

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I'm so angry I can't discuss this rationally..

I know what you mean as it will stop many young people from ever going further than college as university will be out of reach, it is like we are going back in time.

This country will become an educational backwater if this goes forward.

Originally Posted by kathleen

If you are poor and good, take a loan. You will pay up when you get the salary.

We have have far too many mediocre students in Unis and far too many mediocre Unis, This will flash them out. We subsidise a lot of mediocre students going to mediocre Unis.

It is like the benefits systems....

Have you thought your proposition fully through?

What is the collateral for this loan - the young person who is applying good intentions? (as they will have nothing else to put up, being "poor).

I always love the posit of "mediocre students going to mediocre Universities" - you appear not to support "widening participation", then, giving those who did not have well-off parents or who could get some form of bursary, the chance of experiencing Higher Education?

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Masque

I know what you mean as it will stop many young people from ever going further than college as university will be out of reach, it is like we are going back in time.

This country will become an educational backwater if this goes forward.

As opposed to right now where, despite record numbers going to university and record A Level and GCSE results, employers are complaining about levels of innumeracy and illiteracy and having to hire from abroad due to a lack of skills locally you mean?

If this pushes up standards and means that graduates both complete their courses and leave with better prospects than when they started I'm all for it.

I know of several companies, including my own, that have had to hire outside the UK as the skills and experience just didn't exist here. Sadly for technical and engineering professions there isn't much call or use for degrees in Outdoor Adventure with Philosphy, Equestrian Psychology or Martial Arts and Adventure Tourism.

Over 20% of students fail to complete their course and Scotland, where there are no fees, has the highest dropout rate in the UK. The lowest dropout rate is actually in England. Accumulating debt to study is never pleasant, but it would appear to focus the mind.

Originally Posted by kathleen

If you are poor and good, take a loan. You will pay up when you get the salary.

We have have far too many mediocre students in Unis and far too many mediocre Unis, This will flash them out. We subsidise a lot of mediocre students going to mediocre Unis.

It is like the benefits systems....

No it isn't.People don't pay back benefits.

We need graduates to teach our children but this system is going to make a lot of bright youngsters discount it as a choice of profession.

If a middle of the road middle class family having two or more children wanting to go to university are going to find themselves stretched just to find the contributions that they are expect to pay towards tuition fees, then it may well come to the point that some will be having to choose which of those 2 or3 can actually go to university.

Yes the poorer students will be provided for(but many will choose not to be saddled with any debt at all) and the better off will just pay up front and not bother with loans..

This will be a very divisive system AND at the end of the day it may well be that the loans will not be paid off any quicker than they currently are if at all.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Masque

You obviously do not have a clue or live in the real world, as this will prevent many excellent students from lower income families going onto university because the thought of having such a huge bill to pay at the end will put them off and the country will be the losers as the we then have no top class scholars going out into the workplace.

Neither are you if you think that having fees as they are now is giving us many excellent students and top class scholars going out into the workplace. Our skills gap is massive and the increased participation in Higher Education has done precisely nothing to close it.

---------- Post added at 08:47 ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 ----------

Originally Posted by Maggy J

If a middle of the road middle class family having two or more children wanting to go to university are going to find themselves stretched just to find the contributions that they are expect to pay towards tuition fees, then it may well come to the point that some will be having to choose which of those 2 or3 can actually go to university.

Could of course save for them, as I have been for my daughter for some time having fully expected to receive nothing from the state for her to be educated beyond FE.

It's what happens in Canada, the USA, and other places that aren't educational backwaters. If we want to make participation as wide as it is there something has to give, no?

Originally Posted by Maggy J

We need graduates to teach our children but this system is going to make a lot of bright youngsters discount it as a choice of profession.

I'd suggest that the low pay and other reasons make bright youngsters discount it as a choice of profession. Anyone who goes into teaching looking at it from the financial side is probably barking up the wrong tree

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Neither are you if you think that having fees as they are now is giving us many excellent students and top class scholars going out into the workplace. Our skills gap is massive and the increased participation in Higher Education has done precisely nothing to close it.

---------- Post added at 08:47 ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 ----------



Could of course save for them, as I have been for my daughter for some time having fully expected to receive nothing from the state for her to be educated beyond FE.

It's what happens in Canada, the USA, and other places that aren't educational backwaters. If we want to make participation as wide as it is there something has to give, no?

I saved for mine but not intentionally..I was saving to ensure that she would have a deposit on a house when the time came but they changed the grants system and it all went on contributions..which were at least capped.

Now at 58 I have no more money to provide the deposit and she has (despite having a 2.1 English degree) to train as a dispensing optician for another 3 years.She is still paying off her loan but very slowly because she still isn't earning nearly enough to do so..

At 27 she is finding that having and obtaining a degree wasn't the sinecure that it was held out to be..

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Could of course save for them, as I have been for my daughter for some time having fully expected to receive nothing from the state for her to be educated beyond FE.

It's what happens in Canada, the USA, and other places that aren't educational backwaters. If we want to make participation as wide as it is there something has to give, no?

Not everyone can afford to pay for University. Not every family can afford to save for University either, with two children and a mortgage I imagine the idea of saving for the cost of both children, or even one, to attend University will be too much for the average family. Especially since they are also removing the cap on tuition fees. At the moment two children on a three year course will require they save around £18,000 for the two of them on tuition fees alone. The governments plan looks to double that.

The USA example is poor because it's well known the difficultly students from poorer backgrounds face in going to University.

I'd suggest that the low pay and other reasons make bright youngsters discount it as a choice of profession. Anyone who goes into teaching looking at it from the financial side is probably barking up the wrong tree

However this new system would further discourage people going into teaching, as the salary (£20,000 to £35,000) puts them in the group that will end up paying more than anyone else for their education. Earning enough for the government to charge interest and not enough to realistically pay it back any time soon.

This system screws over all but the rich and a lucky handful of the very poor.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Neither are you if you think that having fees as they are now is giving us many excellent students and top class scholars going out into the workplace. Our skills gap is massive and the increased participation in Higher Education has done precisely nothing to close it.

And a massive increase in fees is going to ensure that we get that skillset and it is not going to put people off going to university due to the costs involved.

All we will end up with is an elitist education system in this country and only people with money going to university, the examples of other countries such as the US and Canada is all well and good but this county is not used to these kind of charges, and it will be many years before it is accepted and in that time much of our home grown talent will not have gone to university due to the costs involved.