The Pope Thread [UK visit 2010 - merged]

Well far as i can see if religion doesn't alter to catch up with society then it has no place to criticise society although it seems some never tire of criticising which i guess is easier to do then actually make any meaningful changes to how things are within many of the worlds recognised faiths. All i see happening if there is no change is churches getting emptier and emptier to the point that by it's own inaction to change the church whatever one it may be will cease to be anything meaningful or relevent to the world in which it is trying to take part in. Me i will carry on my nazi atheist existence treating all i meet as individuals not a group, it has by and large worked for me so far .

Originally Posted by Chris

Human conduct hasn't changed in 2,000 years though. The reason the Bible writer called Paul argued against homosexual practice, for example, was because there was plenty of it around at the time, especially in Greece and Rome (Paul wrote about it in a letter addressed to Christians living in Rome who wanted to know whether it was acceptable - he was unequivocal in stating that in the eyes of the Christian God, it is not).

Thank you for an excellant response Chris,
I would like to concentrate on the above point as it is more pertinant to the "pope thread" if i may.How do christians respect homosexuals as people equal to others even though it is against gods will (as stated in Pauls letters) .My morals are to treat gay people as equals,the catholic church has different views as does Islam ,and yet the morals that teach us to accept gay people as equals goes directly against gods will .I suppose what i am asking is ,shouldn't christianity re-interpret the bible or specifically the new testament as has happened before over the centuries to be more intune with modern society ?.

Originally Posted by martyh

Thank you for an excellant response Chris,
I would like to concentrate on the above point as it is more pertinant to the "pope thread" if i may.How do christians respect homosexuals as people equal to others even though it is against gods will (as stated in Pauls letters) .My morals are to treat gay people as equals,the catholic church has different views as does Islam ,and yet the morals that teach us to accept gay people as equals goes directly against gods will .I suppose what i am asking is ,shouldn't christianity re-interpret the bible or specifically the new testament as has happened before over the centuries to be more intune with modern society ?.

Well, I can't speak specifically for the Pope or for Roman Catholics, as I'm not one. However I think I'm right in saying that orthodox, Evangelical Protestant theology has the same approach as the Catholic. So here goes.

The outline I gave above is, essentially, a brief discussion of the consequences of, and the remedy for, sin. Sin being the concept of failing to live up to God's perfect moral standard. The thing about sin is, everybody is trapped by it. You, me, everyone. The only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is that the Christian believes he has discovered the means to be forgiven for his sin and to avoid paying a penalty for it.

Sin is not defined as a narrow set of pet hates that the Church currently has a problem with - it goes far deeper. The teachings of Jesus, recorded by John, (one of his closest friends) say that a man who even just looks at a woman who isn't his wife and imagines himself having sex with her is committing sin. You don't even have to actually do it. Same goes for looking at someone else and thinking murderous thoughts. As far as God is concerned, it's as bad as actually killing someone.

The point of me saying all this is to illustrate the point that no Christian with a balanced view of himself can possibly treat a gay person as anything less than an equal. We are all equally fallible and we all need the same remedy.

As to why the Bible gets so frothy about sexual sin - and that's heterosexual sin, as well as homosexual sin - well, I touched on it a little in my earlier post. God created man and woman to be different but complementary, and able to relate to one another physically and emotionally in a way that would help them to understand the relationship spiritually between God and humankind. In Christian teaching, any deviation from the one man, one woman, exculsive, lifelong marriage relationship is a departure from that illustration and a misuse of a God-given gift.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Chris

The teachings of Jesus, recorded by John, (one of his closest friends) say that a man who even just looks at a woman who isn't his wife and imagines himself having sex with her is committing sin.

Did he expect the thinking of sex should come into it later?
have you said that right? when you say "isn't his wife" should that be she's already married to somebody?

Same goes for looking at someone else and thinking murderous thoughts. As far as God is concerned, it's as bad as actually killing someone.

So because you resisted the temptation [known as the devil) you're still as bad. you may as well have killed him! which just says the devil is equal and not worser than God.

Originally Posted by Gary L

Did he expect the thinking of sex should come into it later?
have you said that right? when you say "isn't his wife" should that be she's already married to somebody?

Not really ... I'm trying to describe Jesus' line on the subject without resorting to overly religious words like 'lust', which is how he actually put it. It's not sinful to look at a woman, think you'd like to marry her, and mentally acknowledge everything that goes with that. Desire between a man and a woman can be pure. The problem arises when the desire is for a purely physical relationship, or a relationship conceived without the intent for it to be permanent and committed.

So because you resisted the temptation [known as the devil) you're still as bad. you may as well have killed him! which just says the devil is equal and not worser than God.

Again, not really. Temptation, and acting on it, is a process. Being tempted isn't a sin, but there comes a point where a person inwardly accepts that that is what they want to do .. they kind of 'agree' with the temptation, if you like. They may then either go on and do it, or not; either way, once the temptation is 'conceived', that's the point where you're in trouble. The teaching on that comes from James, who was one of Jesus' brothers.

Incidentally, orthodox Christian belief is that the Devil is a real being - he is the tempter, not the temptation itself.

[Peter_]

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