The Pope Thread [UK visit 2010 - merged] - Page 2

Kymmy · 04-09-2010, 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

You may not like it Kymmy but those are the facts.

You seem to be arguing simplistic facts against a valid viewpoint... Not sure why??

Does anyone honestly think that the queen said "I have an idea..lets invite the pope for tea"

As for the vatican being a state well give a cult power long enough and they'll try exactly the same..

With so many not wanting to either pay for this visit or for it to go ahead I wonder exactly why it is still going ahead.. A case for more referrendums perhaps??

Russ · 04-09-2010, 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy

With so many not wanting to either pay for this visit or for it to go ahead I wonder exactly why it is still going ahead..

Perhaps those questioned were unaware that the Vatican is a legitimate state?

Kymmy · 04-09-2010, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

Perhaps those questioned were unaware that the Vatican is a legitimate state?

Should that have effected a personal viewpoint? If it wasn't a state then the goverment would never have attempted to pay for it all, but that still doesn't make it right (either as to the payment or the fact that it shoudn't really be a state) and a referendum would have corrected at least one of them..

**Chris** · 04-09-2010, 10:58

We're not Switzerland ... referendums are not a regular part of our democratic process.

Kymmy · 04-09-2010, 10:59

Can we have a referendum to make it possible to have more referendums??

**Chris** · 04-09-2010, 11:00

roffle ...

Mr Angry · 04-09-2010, 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy

You seem to be arguing simplistic facts against a valid viewpoint... Not sure why??

Exactly, it's facts v's opinion. You are of course entitled to your opinion / viewpoint however neither of which change the facts. (sorry was typing this as you pm'd).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Does anyone honestly think that the queen said "I have an idea..lets invite the pope for tea"

I don't think it's important what she said, literally, but the fact still stands - only the Queen can invite him. There were issues of Brown having broken with protocol however the queen formally extended the invitation and has stood over same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy

As for the vatican being a state well give a cult power long enough and they'll try exactly the same..

A cult may try it but I doubt if they'll become a universally recognised sovereign state. I'm not sure it's wise or helpful to be drawing the cult analogy given that the OP asked for this not to become a religion bashing thread. That said, I am not aware of any cults currently trying to establish themselves as sovereign states.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy

With so many not wanting to either pay for this visit or for it to go ahead I wonder exactly why it is still going ahead.. A case for more referrendums perhaps??

The UK is a democracy. If the majority of the population - as opposed to the majority of a sample base - were to effectively voice their opposition then I would assume that the Queen would revisit her initial invitation on that basis.

That, however, is not currently the position.

Russ · 04-09-2010, 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Should that have effected a personal viewpoint?

Of course. I don't doubt many people are unaware that the Vatican is a state and will think this is just a religious visit, nothing more. Given the amount on anti-religious feeling in the world today I can understand why people could be mistaken about this.

**Chris** · 04-09-2010, 11:16

The National Secular Society is well aware that the Vatican is internationally recognised as a State, with the Pope as its Monarch. They recognise that this is the reason the visit is being funded by the UK and why the Pope is getting the official reception that makes them so furious. That's why they're putting a lot of effort into legal attempts to get the Vatican's status 'redefined' shall we say.

The opinion that the Vatican is a 'religious enclave' is, essentially, a summary of the legal argument that is made against it. But that's what it is - it's a legal argument, it is not the currently accepted position in international law. IMO that position is not about to change any time soon.

It is quite easy to forget that here in the UK we live in a secular bubble (with vestiges of Anglicanism around the edges) and to assume the whole world is more or less in sympathy with the secularist agenda. The fact is, is itsn't. There are a billion Catholics worldwide, many of them in positions of influence in influential countries.

Kymmy · 04-09-2010, 11:21

Oh I totally agree Russ, but that is also a valid side though not one for this thread

Mr Angwy.. (sorry started on the whiskey early so typing is slurred

)

Perhaps the fact that people realy on facts is problematic within this society? Instead if people had and stuck to their own viewpoint the facts may be overturned and new and more relevant facts would come into place..

For example the viewpoints on many as to not wanting to pay for this visit may actually become a fact that is more relevant to the exisiting fact that we are paying for the visit

We can but hope...(and some may pray)

Would be interesting to find out what percentage of those who dont want to pay for the visit are catholic?? I presume quite a few and well withing the percentages of the catholic population of the UK

Mr Angry · 04-09-2010, 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Oh I totally agree Russ, but that is also a valid side though not one for this thread

Mr Angwy.. (sorry started on the whiskey early so typing is slurred

)

Perhaps the fact that people realy on facts is problematic within this society? Instead if people had and stuck to their own viewpoint the facts may be overturned and new and more relevant facts would come into place..

For example the viewpoints on many as to not wanting to pay for this visit may actually become a fact that is more relevant to the exisiting fact that we are paying for the visit

We can but hope...(and some may pray)

Would be interesting to find out what percentage of those who dont want to pay for the visit are catholic?? I presume quite a few and well withing the percentages of the catholic population of the UK

I get where you're coming from Kymmy.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if a fair percentage of those not wanting to fund the Popes visit were disaffected catholics or catholics who feel let down by the behaviour of their church.

Kymmy · 04-09-2010, 11:42

There could be 1001 different reasons as to why someone wouldn't like an organisation such as this.. I'd rather though take the mass NO without individual reasons than try to sort out why people are saying no.. Otherwise you'd be bogging down a simple answer with complications when in truth the simple asnwer is all we need..

TheDaddy · 04-09-2010, 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Not wanting to go too far down this path but he is a non-democratic head of a religious enclave (not political country or sovereign state) As head he is voted in by people that the previous pope has appointed..

Most others in this situation wouldn't be recieved as a head of state or a nation as he is in fact neither

He is a democratically elected head of state, much more so than our own Queen at any rate.

I was in general support for his visit, being a head of state, head of a church over a billion strong and for the overal influence this man has. However the figures involved are mind boggling up to Â£12 million from the tax payer, up to 10 million from the Catholic church and that's not even taking into account the security costs, that is far to much imo and can't be justified.

Kymmy · 04-09-2010, 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

He is a democratically elected head of state, much more so than our own Queen at any rate..

But the queen is a figure head of state with the power through parliament, unlike the pope she has no power..

The pope does have power but is not truely elected apart from a puppet group that was put in place by the last pope..

Not sure how anyone can compare the two??

**Chris** · 04-09-2010, 12:10

I'm no fan of the Church of Rome, but calling the College of Cardinals a 'puppet group' placed by the previous pope is a bit unfair (as well as quite inaccurate). There are a lot of Cardinals, and many of them have been in-post for a great many years. They come from all over the world and represent all the cultures where the Roman church exists. As a system of representative democracy it's far, far from the worst the world has produced.