2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll

[injuneer]

Originally Posted by punky

Anyone else find it a bit odd Vince Cable isn't part of the talks? He was by his side throuought the entire campaign and (appeared, at least) to be Clegg's closest and most respect confident. Much the same way as Hague was for Cameron or the Dark Lord for Brown. Yet he has no role to play in the biggest event in the Lib Dem's history for 70 years?

Probably because their financial policies are poles apart. The Torys said they wouldn't compromise on financial policy.

[SlackDad]

Regardless of my preferred outcome I can't help but think that Brown/Cable/Darling steering the country through the economic crisis would be the best team.

I wonder whether they can just agree that there will be a cross-party group to deal with the economic crisis aside from party politics/factions as they keep saying, in the national interest, and then leave this out of the negotiations over who forms the next government.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Chris

No, they managed to get two MEPs because sufficient people voted for them. This is what we call 'democracy'. I'm disturbed by the implication that you think it acceptable to choose an electoral system that is designed to lock out people you disagree with.

I'm disturbed that you think it's acceptable to choose an electoral system that is designed to produce NOC, compromise, fractured government, and wasteful positions.

Germany and Italy are wheeled out as examples as good and bad, while ignoring Germany's near bankruptcy through botched reunification which still sees the East being vastly behind the West, and the serious weakening to Merkel's government through the coalition she was forced into several times.
I could of course list many more countries where PR produces weak and ineffective governments, but you already know about them, but are choosing to ignore them.

[punky]

I can't see Lib-Lab coalition being feasible. They still wouldn't have the seats they need without having to get SNP, PC and other parties in to push them over 326 seats?

If a 2 party coalition is difficult, a 4,5, 6 party coalition has to be worse, especially when people have different nationalistic interests.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

I'm disturbed that you think it's acceptable to choose an electoral system that is designed to produce NOC, compromise, fractured government, and wasteful positions.

Germany and Italy are wheeled out as examples as good and bad, while ignoring Germany's near bankruptcy through botched reunification which still sees the East being vastly behind the West, and the serious weakening to Merkel's government through the coalition she was forced into several times.
I could of course list many more countries where PR produces weak and ineffective governments, but you already know about them, but are choosing to ignore them.

Good grief what a load of nonsense. PR is not 'designed to produce NOC, compromise, fractured government, and wasteful positions'. Why on earth would anyone want to 'design' a system with those attributes? PR is designed for government to reflect the opinions of the electorate. That it result in weak and ineffective governments is just baseless rhetoric. The example of German reunification is completely irrelevant. How on earth is the fact that this process was 'botched' down to PR, and what evidence do you have that this process would have been done better under another system?

Oh, and I'm very interested in this long list of weak governments that you will probably fail to provide.

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

I'm disturbed that you think it's acceptable to choose an electoral system that is designed to produce NOC, compromise, fractured government, and wasteful positions.

Germany and Italy are wheeled out as examples as good and bad, while ignoring Germany's near bankruptcy through botched reunification which still sees the East being vastly behind the West, and the serious weakening to Merkel's government through the coalition she was forced into several times.
I could of course list many more countries where PR produces weak and ineffective governments, but you already know about them, but are choosing to ignore them.

Near bankruptcy?Not really....

also,the East is behind the West in some parts,most of Eastern Germany however is thoroughly modernised,and in many instances in better shape than the West!
And yes,PR may cripple the country,Germany seems to be constantly squabbling about one thing or the other.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Damien

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/elect...tuency/c17.stm

The guy who came last here didn't even vote for himself!

I think that sort of thing normally happens when a candidate withdraws from the ballot, but they have missed the deadline for the printers. So their votes are not counted, but they are still listed. This is where an STV system would be of use. If someone was to put their choice as the withdrawn candidate, their second option would get the vote.

---------- Post added at 13:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:04 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

No, they managed to get two MEPs because sufficient people voted for them. This is what we call 'democracy'. I'm disturbed by the implication that you think it acceptable to choose an electoral system that is designed to lock out people you disagree with.

Or was it that not enough people voted at all? Being as their current excuse is that too many people voted this time around.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by danielf

Oh, and I'm very interested in this long list of weak governments that you will probably fail to provide.

As I said, you already know about them but are choosing to ignore them in which case, no point me listing them is there, or if you really don't know about them, then you should do a bit more research into the consequences of PR.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

As I said, you already know about them but are choosing to ignore them, or if you don't know about them, then you should do a bit more research into the consequences of PR.

Perhaps, but can you not just humour those of us who are too old and may have forgotten?

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

As I said, you already know about them but are choosing to ignore them in which case, no point me listing them is there, or if you really don't know about them, then you should do a bit more research into the consequences of PR.

FFS. Have you taken a course in obfuscation, misdirection, and deliberately no answering a question put to you?

Thanks, I don't have to do any research into the consequences of PR. I've lived and voted in a PR system for most of my life, so I know the consequences first hand. It's not perfect, but it's a *lot* better than the system here where nearly a quarter of the electorate see their vote get them 9% of the seats in the commons.

I'm quite happy to debate it, but unfortunately you only seem intent on coming out with pointless rhetoric that you don't can't (or are unwilling to) back up with any kind of fact or reasoned argument.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by danielf

FFS. Have you taken a course in obfuscation, misdirection, and deliberately no answering a question put to you?

Thanks, I don't have to do any research into the consequences of PR. I've lived and voted in a PR system for most of my life, so I know the consequences first hand. It's not perfect, but it's a *lot* better than the system here where nearly a quarter of the electorate see their vote get them 9% of the seats in the commons.

I'm quite happy to debate it, but unfortunately you only seem intent on coming out with pointless rhetoric that you don't can't (or are unwilling to) back up with any kind of fact or reasoned argument.

So because you've had the experience in one country, you don't think you should do a bit of your own research into the effects in other nations?

I can do that too, I've lived in a FPTP system all my voting life and seen it produce strong governments.
I've also seen first hand PR countries and the ineffectiveness of them.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

So because you've had the experience in one country, you don't think you should do a bit of your own research into the effects in other nations?

He has shown other countries where it has worked such as Germany, Chris came up with a well reasoned argument as well. He asked you to provide the list of countries where it hasn't worked.

[Angua]

Some form of PR actually produces a MORE stable government than the see-saw politics of single party administrations. I can remember the nightmare of the 70's with each new government immediately undoing everything the previous one did. It is only since the 80's that we have had long term administrations, which given this last election looks set to become a rarity again. At least with consensus politics the extremes are evened out.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Angua

At least with consensus politics the extremes are evened out.

*cough* Israel *cough*
The religious right are able to blackmail the other parties into doing anything they want.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

*cough* Israel *cough*
The religious right are able to blackmail the other parties into doing anything they want.

Could you honestly see this country doing the same.