Headteacher Quits After Pet Lamb Slaughtered

Originally Posted by Flyboy

Do you really expect a bunch of seven, eight, nine, ten and eleven year olds really understood what they were voting for? Surely no one is so naive to imagine, a strong minded head teacher could influence a vote by these little children (yes, they are just little children)? Which way do you think a vote to slaughter the class hamster would have gone? Were they asked to vote on whether the animal should be sold, or sold then slaughtered? It would be very interesting to know how the ballot papers were worded, if indeed there was an actual ballot, or was it just a show of hands?

You really are clutching at straws now. Since you lost the argument about the vote you now change to having a go at the children themselves, trying to make out they didnt understand what they voted for. Just for your information, I asked my neice (who is 10) if she understood exactly what the vote was about. Sadly for your argument, she did, as Im quite sure did the school council.

You also accuse the head of influencing them with no evidence at all, just more desperation on your part as you cant comprehend that these poor "little childen" might actually have known what they were voting for, and you dont like it.

As for the class Hamster, thats irrelevant, since such an animal is clearly a pet, a totally different situation - allthough according to you they would also have voted to slaughter that as well, since they clearly had no idea of what they were voting for

[rogerdraig]

Originally Posted by Paul M

You really are clutching at straws now. Since you lost the argument about the vote you now change to having a go at the children themselves, trying to make out they didnt understand what they voted for. Just for your information, I asked my neice (who is 10) if she understood exactly what the vote was about. Sadly for your argument, she did, as Im quite sure did the school council.

You also accuse the head of influencing them with no evidence at all, just more desperation on your part as you cant comprehend that these poor "little childen" might actually have known what they were voting for, and you dont like it.

As for the class Hamster, thats irrelevant, since such an animal is clearly a pet, a totally different situation - allthough according to you they would also have voted to slaughter that as well, since they clearly had no idea of what they were voting for

one of my children is on a school council they dont really get to vote on things as in for or against its there to make the school look good in inspections ! and again to look good for a body that said a certain social services department was good !

this sort of exercise should be for the secondary schools not for these children yes children there may be ready but while there are those there who are not it should not be forced on them

and as i have pointed out i am not vegetarian i have even killed animals on a friends farm for food

but i would have done everything and still would to stop them doing this at my kids school

[Rosiemay]

My daughter is 7 and we cook together (well, I cook, she supervises ), and this came up naturally one day, as she asked what we were actually preparing, leg of lamb. I was quite clear in my answer but kept it basic, we were eating an animal, a lamb, because we eat meat and that's what happens. They live on farms and have to die for humans to eat. After pondering for a second she said "so they die and their legs are chopped off?". I said "yes". Nothing more was asked until we sat to eat and she said "are we eating a lamb's leg?"

"Yes".

She popped a piece in her mouth and said "Mmmm, yummy . She wasn't at all troubled and always asks what she is eating now, although I did chuckle when she asked what part an animal did roast chicken come from

Children ask questions about the world and we shouldn't be afraid of answering them, in a basic easy-to-understand way, nor do I have a problem learning this at school as it's educational about how we live. If the children were upset it was probably at the loss of animal as a pet rather than the actual slaughter, and pets are a good way of teaching children about loss. It happens unfortunately, and it should have been a good way of parents connecting with their children to understand their feelings, instead of the adults acting like hooligans (the Head should have her house burned down? Did someone really write that? If they did they should have been hauled in for questioning for threatening this)

It could have been a interesting learning experience, but it's meant the loss of an apparently good Headmistress, and that I think is an absolute shame.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Rosiemay

My daughter is 7 and we cook together (well, I cook, she supervises ), and this came up naturally one day, as she asked what we were actually preparing, leg of lamb. I was quite clear in my answer but kept it basic, we were eating an animal, a lamb, because we eat meat and that's what happens. They live on farms and have to die for humans to eat. After pondering for a second she said "so they die and their legs are chopped off?". I said "yes". Nothing more was asked until we sat to eat and she said "are we eating a lamb's leg?"

"Yes".

She popped a piece in her mouth and said "Mmmm, yummy . She wasn't at all troubled and always asks what she is eating now, although I did chuckle when she asked what part an animal did roast chicken come from

Children ask questions about the world and we shouldn't be afraid of answering them, in a basic easy-to-understand way, nor do I have a problem learning this at school as it's educational about how we live. If the children were upset it was probably at the loss of animal as a pet rather than the actual slaughter, and pets are a good way of teaching children about loss. It happens unfortunately, and it should have been a good way of parents connecting with their children to understand their feelings, instead of the adults acting like hooligans (the Head should have her house burned down? Did someone really write that? If they did they should have been hauled in for questioning for threatening this)

It could have been a interesting learning experience, but it's meant the loss of an apparently good Headmistress, and that I think is an absolute shame.

Well said I know mine have and will react exactly the same way (now aged 10 & 13). Children are far less sentimental when it comes to food than people think, and very well able to cope with the truth. The younger they are introduced to the truth the more straightforward the reaction.

We have an excellent farm shop nearby where you can see the animals in the barn and can clearly explain that when they are big enough they will be killed and sold in the on site shop.

A local butchers has a photograph of the animal with name and age and where it was from for beef sold in the shop.

Hamsters are brilliant class pets because they have a fairly short life and the children can learn about death & loss. Wrapping them up in cotton wool & shielding them from reality will do them no favours whatsoever. Is it any wonder we have a shortage of home grown Doctors & Nurses when learning about illness & death is hidden away.

last two posts

agree 100%

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Angua

Hamsters are brilliant class pets because they have a fairly short life ...

They are also lovely with chips, corn niblets and salad cream.

[rogerdraig]

Originally Posted by Rosiemay

My daughter is 7 and we cook together (well, I cook, she supervises ), and this came up naturally one day, as she asked what we were actually preparing, leg of lamb. I was quite clear in my answer but kept it basic, we were eating an animal, a lamb, because we eat meat and that's what happens. They live on farms and have to die for humans to eat. After pondering for a second she said "so they die and their legs are chopped off?". I said "yes". Nothing more was asked until we sat to eat and she said "are we eating a lamb's leg?"

"Yes".

She popped a piece in her mouth and said "Mmmm, yummy . She wasn't at all troubled and always asks what she is eating now, although I did chuckle when she asked what part an animal did roast chicken come from

Children ask questions about the world and we shouldn't be afraid of answering them, in a basic easy-to-understand way, nor do I have a problem learning this at school as it's educational about how we live. If the children were upset it was probably at the loss of animal as a pet rather than the actual slaughter, and pets are a good way of teaching children about loss. It happens unfortunately, and it should have been a good way of parents connecting with their children to understand their feelings, instead of the adults acting like hooligans (the Head should have her house burned down? Did someone really write that? If they did they should have been hauled in for questioning for threatening this)

It could have been a interesting learning experience, but it's meant the loss of an apparently good Headmistress, and that I think is an absolute shame.

that is your decision based on what you feel you child is up to understanding and good for you doing things with your kids

BUT this is a school not all the kids are the same and it should be up to the parents when and how kids learn this sort of thing

[Angua]

Originally Posted by rogermevans

that is your decision based on what you feel you child is up to understanding and good for you doing things with your kids

BUT this is a school not all the kids are the same and it should be up to the parents when and how kids learn this sort of thing

The problem with this approach is out of a class of 30 you might be lucky to have 5 children with parents who take the trouble to inform their children properly. Another 5 who will have parents who are anti the school teaching anything remotely to do with emotional development. Leaving the majority with parents who believe this is the teachers job learning nothing, because of the few who cannot trust the teachers.

Why else would we have such things as compulsory relationship education.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Paul M

You really are clutching at straws now. Since you lost the argument about the vote you now change to having a go at the children themselves, trying to make out they didnt understand what they voted for. Just for your information, I asked my neice (who is 10) if she understood exactly what the vote was about. Sadly for your argument, she did, as Im quite sure did the school council.

You also accuse the head of influencing them with no evidence at all, just more desperation on your part as you cant comprehend that these poor "little childen" might actually have known what they were voting for, and you dont like it.

As for the class Hamster, thats irrelevant, since such an animal is clearly a pet, a totally different situation - allthough according to you they would also have voted to slaughter that as well, since they clearly had no idea of what they were voting for

I don't think you quite understood what I was writing. Pets die all the time, but they tend to die a natural death and are very rarely eaten afterwards, but I very much doubt that childen as young as this would vote for it to be slaughtered. At no point did I suggest that this school council had voted for such a thing. If you asked a seven year old to decide to kill a lamb that they had been caring for, from birth for a year, do you really expect them to say, "yes, let's kill and eat it, mmmmmmm, tasty." I have not had a go at children, what a really odd accusation. I don't think that anyone could ever had inferred that from my post. I wonder why you have.

Headteachers influence the decisions of children all the time, if it suits their goals, just as any other adult, especially parents. I have seen teachers and headteachers "supervise" school council elections and votes and as chairs, they hold a veto. Do you really think that if a headteacher wanted to achieve a certain objective, that they wouldn't do their best to persuade the school council to come the "right" decision? I have seen this happen on more than one occasion, even from headteachers who apparently had a reputation similar to this one.

There really is a huge difference between the cognitive abilities and emotional awareness of a seven year old, compared to that of a ten year old. Can you really be that sure that any seven year old would really freely vote for such a thing, if they truly knew the consequences of their choice and that they wouldn't succumb to blackmail and pressure from those who are bigger and older than they are? Children of this age put an awful lot of trust in the adults who surround them and if their headteacher told that the little lamb will be going to a better place, where it can frolic and gambol in open fields and live on a cloud for all eternity, they would believe them.

This is nothing whatsoever to do with knowing where meat comes from. There are many different ways to show childen how this is achieved, but to make them choose whether to slaughter an animal, whom they know personally, I am sure that, if they were given the full facts, the decision would have had a very different outcome. This was about the headteacher imposing her extreme values upon the children, against the wishes of parents. I wonder how many of the children who where vegetarian were asked about whether the animal should be slaughtered.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

I don't think you quite understood what I was writing. Pets die all the time, but they tend to die a natural death and are very rarely eaten afterwards, but I very much doubt that childen as young as this would vote for it to be slaughtered. At no point did I suggest that this school council had voted for such a thing. If you asked a seven year old to decide to kill a lamb that they had been caring for, from birth for a year, do you really expect them to say, "yes, let's kill and eat it, mmmmmmm, tasty." I have not had a go at children, what a really odd accusation. I don't think that anyone could ever had inferred that from my post. I wonder why you have.

Headteachers influence the decisions of children all the time, if it suits their goals, just as any other adult, especially parents. I have seen teachers and headteachers "supervise" school council elections and votes and as chairs, they hold a veto. Do you really think that if a headteacher wanted to achieve a certain objective, that they wouldn't do their best to persuade the school council to come the "right" decision? I have seen this happen on more than one occasion, even from headteachers who apparently had a reputation similar to this one.

There really is a huge difference between the cognitive abilities and emotional awareness of a seven year old, compared to that of a ten year old. Can you really be that sure that any seven year old would really freely vote for such a thing, if they truly knew the consequences of their choice and that they wouldn't succumb to blackmail and pressure from those who are bigger and older than they are? Children of this age put an awful lot of trust in the adults who surround them and if their headteacher told that the little lamb will be going to a better place, where it can frolic and gambol in open fields and live on a cloud for all eternity, they would believe them.

This is nothing whatsoever to do with knowing where meat comes from. There are many different ways to show childen how this is achieved, but to make them choose whether to slaughter an animal, whom they know personally, I am sure that, if they were given the full facts, the decision would have had a very different outcome. This was about the headteacher imposing her extreme values upon the children, against the wishes of parents. I wonder how many of the children who where vegetarian were asked about whether the animal should be slaughtered.

Based on the catchment area for this school I would imagine many of the children knew first hand what raising & then slaughtering a Lamb for food would entail. Without the emotional baggage that has been attached to the whole episode by people who are anti meat eaters.


Would also be surprised if there were more than a handful of vegetarians in the whole school. Hardly right they should decide what happens for the majority.

Pets also have to be taken to the vet to be put to sleep due to illness. This is where parental emotional support is needed as if you bring the animal home for burial it could still be twitching for some time.

Originally Posted by Flyboy

I don't think you quite understood what I was writing. Pets die all the time, but they tend to die a natural death and are very rarely eaten afterwards, but I very much doubt that childen as young as this would vote for it to be slaughtered. At no point did I suggest that this school council had voted for such a thing. If you asked a seven year old to decide to kill a lamb that they had been caring for, from birth for a year, do you really expect them to say, "yes, let's kill and eat it, mmmmmmm, tasty." I have not had a go at children, what a really odd accusation. I don't think that anyone could ever had inferred that from my post. I wonder why you have.

Headteachers influence the decisions of children all the time, if it suits their goals, just as any other adult, especially parents. I have seen teachers and headteachers "supervise" school council elections and votes and as chairs, they hold a veto. Do you really think that if a headteacher wanted to achieve a certain objective, that they wouldn't do their best to persuade the school council to come the "right" decision? I have seen this happen on more than one occasion, even from headteachers who apparently had a reputation similar to this one.

There really is a huge difference between the cognitive abilities and emotional awareness of a seven year old, compared to that of a ten year old. Can you really be that sure that any seven year old would really freely vote for such a thing, if they truly knew the consequences of their choice and that they wouldn't succumb to blackmail and pressure from those who are bigger and older than they are? Children of this age put an awful lot of trust in the adults who surround them and if their headteacher told that the little lamb will be going to a better place, where it can frolic and gambol in open fields and live on a cloud for all eternity, they would believe them.

This is nothing whatsoever to do with knowing where meat comes from. There are many different ways to show childen how this is achieved, but to make them choose whether to slaughter an animal, whom they know personally, I am sure that, if they were given the full facts, the decision would have had a very different outcome. This was about the headteacher imposing her extreme values upon the children, against the wishes of parents. I wonder how many of the children who where vegetarian were asked about whether the animal should be slaughtered.

flyboy , you keep denying the facts why?

the children DID vote
the children DID know what was going to happen to the lambs
the parents at the school DID also know the purpose of the exercise
the schools governing body DID approve the exercise

these facts cannot be denied they did happen wether you like it or not

and what "extreme values"has the teacher got ?
do you even know if their are any vegetarian children at the school and what has that got to do with anything anyway

there are other lessons that the children are learning as well besides the food chain ,what about caring for animals ,the cycle of life and death ,basic principles of democracy .The children have learned these lessons in a real world situation not the wishy washy way taught in inner city schools

[Jimmy-J]

I blame Walt Disney for giving animals a lovely fluffy personality. I mean, what kid would vote yes to have Bambi killed?

[rogerdraig]

Originally Posted by Angua

The problem with this approach is out of a class of 30 you might be lucky to have 5 children with parents who take the trouble to inform their children properly. Another 5 who will have parents who are anti the school teaching anything remotely to do with emotional development. Leaving the majority with parents who believe this is the teachers job learning nothing, because of the few who cannot trust the teachers.

Why else would we have such things as compulsory relationship education.

which is why it shouldn't be done in school

and why there are opt outs for sex ed and relationship education

this is still for parents to decide

and in a school where basic maths even after intervention is still a problem its the last thing they should have been trying to introduce

home schooling is on the increase and a lot of that is to do with parents becoming increasingly fed up with being told what values their kids should be taught rather than schools sticking to teaching the core subjects

i seriously thought about it but think social interaction is as much a part of learning as the imparting of information but if schools continue to try to do this sort of thing I would reconsider

if and when mine are ready I will ( have already for the eldest ) explain and show what happens

( funny thing and remember i eat and have killed my own food very few are willing to show this to these or older kids ( and i think its an older kid thing ) exactly what happens in the abattoir )

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Product 13

I blame Walt Disney for giving animals a lovely fluffy personality. I mean, what kid would vote yes to have Bambi killed?

Do people not read this thread; this is about the fifth time this has been posted.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by rogermevans

which is why it shouldn't be done in school

and why there are opt outs for sex ed and relationship education

this is still for parents to decide

and in a school where basic maths even after intervention is still a problem its the last thing they should have been trying to introduce

home schooling is on the increase and a lot of that is to do with parents becoming increasingly fed up with being told what values their kids should be taught rather than schools sticking to teaching the core subjects

i seriously thought about it but think social interaction is as much a part of learning as the imparting of information but if schools continue to try to do this sort of thing I would reconsider

if and when mine are ready I will ( have already for the eldest ) explain and show what happens

( funny thing and remember i eat and have killed my own food very few are willing to show this to these or older kids ( and i think its an older kid thing ) exactly what happens in the abattoir )

There again my children managed very well with the death of their grandmother at the ages of 7 & 4. We were sharing the same house at the time and they knew she was not in the best of health. Was still very shocking.

Learning that something has to die in order that omnivores can eat meat is a valuable lesson particularly when healthy eating is being actively encouraged. Knowing what something really is, is vital.

People continue to underestimate the ability of children to cope with the unpleasant aspects of life and death. Persisting in attributing the same level of learned sentimentality as adults have to children, does nothing to teach youngsters to cope for themselves.

Would imagine the rearing of this lamb would involve some very practical arithmetic. From the initial purchase through to housing & feeding costs, followed by the value of the meat once sold & to calculate the profit.