Mansfield teacher arrested over All Saints pupil assault

[rogerdraig]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

So have you ever seen the cane administered in school?I'm guessing not.

1-6 strokes of the cane on the palm of the hand.

Not CLOBBERING.

sorry but thats just not the whole story IF we could be sure of exactly how and when it was used it possibly could be good BUT it was often used excessively and for no good reason


here it was used to hit children for daring to speak their own language ( welsh ) my dad can tell you of many injuries that needed attention from the use of the cane

i was i school in the last few years of its use and i often saw the same ones sent for it often because the teacher picked on them often and others who did do things wrong who still did things wrong

the cane would not solve the problems

getting teachers who make learning fun is the best way to improve things

as to this case from what i have read it may just be a case of a teacher who may have needed more recovery time and or more assistance whether wanted or not in his way back into the class room

hitting non consenting people of any age should never be condoned unless its in self defence or defence of others

Well things are no better discipline wise than when I was in school and we were caned...In fact they are worse.

However as I said earlier in this thread it's too late.Caning has gone for good.It won't be returning so it's a moot point to argue about it.

I also said I take comfort in that most children turn out to be decent human beings and even some of those that cause most of the trouble may well turn themselves around eventually.

The problem with the present system is it is much more damaging to disruptive children in the long run.They run the gamut of the low level punishment of detention,isolation,inclusion up to suspension.Suspension can last from a day up a month or so.Eventually these accrue into months.This is all time away from a full time education.

Finally when their personal file is inches thick and they commit the sin that breaks the camel's back and here comes expulsion.More time away from education until another school can be found unless their parents win a reprieve until the next time.

If the child cannot mend their ways they may not survive the probationary period at a new school and it's back to no education while an alternative is sorted unless the original school will agree to take them back.

So time absent from full time education builds up..and the child is finding it harder and harder to keep up when they are in school so they take to bunking off for which they and possibly their parents will face further repercussions and they get further and further behind.GCSE results are bound to be disappointing under those conditions

But luckily that just applies to a small number of students.

In the meantime those who are decent hard-working students face continual disruption from the hard nuts and more staff are required to deal with those who are disruptive. But that's OK because no one gets hurt in the process.

[rogerdraig]

most of that is down to schools not wanting to loose money

too many suspensions at the moment are not legal as they dont go through the proper channels which would get the child out of the school and still provide them with proper education

also they often go out of their way to avoid statementing kids which could lead to the child getting the extra help it may need in education which would likely improve their behaviour because they dont want to have to provide that help but prefers the in house non enforceable help which appears and disappears depending on their budget

in this case though it seems that it is more about the teacher maybe not getting enough support coming back from an illness which most likely though it should have happened didn't for many reasons most likely the highest of them that he didn't think he needed it as most of us don't

i cant see that all the ex pupils would be so praise full of him if he wasn't good at his job and as the school seems to be very selective in its pupil roll i don't think that the pupil will be one of the ones who every one hates either

[nffc]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Well things are no better discipline wise than when I was in school and we were caned...In fact they are worse.

However as I said earlier in this thread it's too late.Caning has gone for good.It won't be returning so it's a moot point to argue about it.

I also said I take comfort in that most children turn out to be decent human beings and even some of those that cause most of the trouble may well turn themselves around eventually.

The problem with the present system is it is much more damaging to disruptive children in the long run.They run the gamut of the low level punishment of detention,isolation,inclusion up to suspension.Suspension can last from a day up a month or so.Eventually these accrue into months.This is all time away from a full time education.

Finally when their personal file is inches thick and they commit the sin that breaks the camel's back and here comes expulsion.More time away from education until another school can be found unless their parents win a reprieve until the next time.

If the child cannot mend their ways they may not survive the probationary period at a new school and it's back to no education while an alternative is sorted unless the original school will agree to take them back.

So time absent from full time education builds up..and the child is finding it harder and harder to keep up when they are in school so they take to bunking off for which they and possibly their parents will face further repercussions and they get further and further behind.GCSE results are bound to be disappointing under those conditions

But luckily that just applies to a small number of students.

In the meantime those who are decent hard-working students face continual disruption from the hard nuts and more staff are required to deal with those who are disruptive. But that's OK because no one gets hurt in the process.

As a teacher yourself, what would you suggest as an alternative?

Originally Posted by nffc

As a teacher yourself, what would you suggest as an alternative?

I haven't one as such..except that pushing everyone down the same academic route is wrong and a more vocational based education system/qualifications would benefit everyone.We did have such a system except it meant children were separated into Grammar,Secondary Moderns and Technical schools via the 11 plus.This was a bit too decisive and unfair(as personal choice was put to one side)and thus the whole system was changed to the Comprehensive system.

All well and good but they somehow forgot that not everyone is academically inclined and more or less did away with vocational education.

The lack of certain skills in our workforce has come about as a consequence and we have a lot of people with media studies degrees...

I was looking forward to the governments new initiative to provide more vocational education for 18-25 year olds but I'm wondering how the present recession will sit with it now..finances will be a problem.

It is all too easy to constantly put the blame on bad parents but in my experience it isn't bad parenting that is too blame it is the system everyone is forced to go through. We are statistic obsessed in this country and thats ok but if there is a problem it is better to sweep it under any carpet then address it in the current enviroment.

I agree with Maggy it is wrong to insist all go the academic route as that simply doesn't suit some and they become distanced from the system through a feeling of personal isolation that isn't helped by being punished with a physical isolation.

I would love to see a system whereby academic study by and large ended at secondary level and the upper level was used to give kids a vocational training of sorts so they leave school at least partly qualified to do a job they choose.

I blame successive governments for this obsession with league tables and statistics and the way funding is decided on those and that is something that urgently needs to be scrapped getting back to good academic basics and a generation of kids that have some clear idea of why they are in school and the benfits of it as many right now don't see it.

We do also need to bring back something be it the cane or slipper or whatever else for those whose idea of a day at school is to cause as much trouble as they can having a usually disproportionate effect on all the other students in the school.

One thing we cannot do anymore is allow the system to put the blame elsewhere for it's failings as they do be it on bad parenting or add which since we have gone to this obsessed system has shot through the roof and get back to personal responsibility and the understanding of how things can affect you even when you don't think they will.

Thats what we have really lost in the UK personal responsibility it has become far too easy to blame someone or something else for your own shortcomings and that is eroding a lot of what was so good about this country.

[lucy7]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

So have you ever seen the cane administered in school?I'm guessing not.

1-6 strokes of the cane on the palm of the hand.

Not CLOBBERING.

It was the backside at my first Grammar School. Only ever done by the Head Master, and always in the presence of another teacher, even in the old days.

My husbands school in Leeds did caning too, infact it was the one where all my kids had their secondry education. That school also did the wooden ruler on the tops of the hands, side of it as well, hurt more than flat on, he only ever got that.

The fear of either kept most folk in check.

As an ex pupil who went to a school where they were allowed to disipline, I feel it worked better than it does in the schools today.

Typed by a Mother of three children, who have only ever been disiplined by teachers by detention methods.

I like Russ do believe that punishment methods should be at home, but when we took everythng away from the teachers the school behaviour did become worse.

Its the fear of something that usually keeps people in check, not nowadays though, as we live in a way different world, than we did in my school days

For most that is what this is about it is not a hankering for a caning epidemic in our schools it is the real threat that it could happen. Also that would also aid many parents in the home with kids but you really are chancing it these days even threatening to touch your child in that way. You cannot take away all the ways then moan when things go pear shaped and thats what is happening now and some people seem happy to look about for the scapegoat rather then facing that unpleasant fact.

[Gavin78]

I'm sure it was easier when middle schools were around?

Originally Posted by alferret

If someone were goading me, taking the urine and swearing at me regardless if they are 14 or 40 they would get a slap up the side of the head from me.

But would you give them a slap with a 2 kilo steel weight?
How do you know he was goading the the teacher etc?

[Jon T]

Originally Posted by dgardner

But would you give them a slap with a 2 kilo steel weight?
How do you know he was goading the the teacher etc?

From someone I work with that had kids in the class when it happened. They were texting her after telling her what happened.

BTW, I don't think it's a good idea to discuss this too much, too much information read by a potential jury member could predujice a fair trail.

Originally Posted by scrotnig

Never ceases to amaze me that anyone ever thought, or still thinks, it's acceptable for a grown adult to repeatedly clobber a small child with a big stick.

Thank the Lord that it's illegal now. An otrageous and barbaric practice.

That's what I mean about the PC brigade.

---------- Post added at 08:57 ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 ----------

Originally Posted by Maggy J

So have you ever seen the cane administered in school?I'm guessing not.

1-6 strokes of the cane on the palm of the hand.

Not CLOBBERING.

We used to get it on the backside, 6 of the best and you never did anything wrong for a few months after that. We couldn't sit down when we were given 6 of the best.

[Russ]

So all of society's problems are due to the removal of using weapons on children as punishment in schools. Awesome logic.

No Russ not just because of that but it is a part of when the problem started.

[Russ]

so all society's problems started with the removal of the cane as punishment in schools? If not what else should we be blaming?