Legal action taken against Virgin Media throttling practices - Page 29

radiosgalore · 16-04-2009, 23:59

wow i just read the whole thread after being away from this forum for ages. thank goodness some one has the money to sue VM. I pay for 2MB and expect that 24/7. It is my opinion that they are indeed in breach of there contract and i shall be phoning regularly to complain every time I get less than what i pay for. I hope the case goes in favour of the OP thats for sure

madmax · 09-05-2009, 18:21

I would be interested to know within which Sheriffdom the case is being heard.

Sirius · 09-05-2009, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmax

I would be interested to know within which Sheriffdom the case is being heard.

I would like to know if this case has progressed any further ?

djmagnifique · 09-05-2009, 22:05

looking at the most recent leflet issued by virgin media it states that(BIG PRINT) 'Our up to 10Mb boradband is on average 2 times faster than BT, Tiscali and Orange (up to 8Mb ADSL).*.

(small print)*five month average of actual 5MB file FTP download speeds in period 1 oct 2008 to 28 feb 2009 - Virgin Media up to 10 Mb fiber optic broadband vs. BT, Tiscali and Orange ADSL Max up to 8Mb broadband products only.

Ifo taken form Virgin media's door to door leflet as delivered by royal mail, leflet code P_MAY09_DD01

So basically they are no longer saying that a specisifc connection on there network will hit the speed its sold at, also the leflet no longer mentions 'UNLIMITED' .

However, if the OP has evidence/copies of leflets posted to them prior to the recent change in the wording on the current leflets then they may be able to get something back for the period that Virgin were advertising the service as unlimited.

n.b. I haven't read the whole thread, only skimmed it so if this is out of context of any previous posted I appologise.

Retrovertigo · 10-05-2009, 00:26

Mailshot posted through my own door today (despite me being on VM already!) states unlimited downloads and in small print says "subject to fair use policy". Nothing mentioned about STM at all.

It is set out as though it has been signed by some guy in sales I think it is. But no mention of anything less than full speeds. It is all very misleading - especially in light of VM's own admission that this area is over subscribed and full speed is impossible to hit.

Turkey Machine · 10-05-2009, 01:00

Cable's marketed as being more reliable and able to hit the target speed more accurately than ADSL. So the "up to" should not apply. I find it disgusting that Virgin Media find it within themselves to cover their filthy backsides with that "up to" clause just so they can skirt around certain speed problems to avoid upgrading the network.

caph · 10-05-2009, 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by radiosgalore

I pay for 2MB and expect that 24/7. It is my opinion that they are indeed in breach of there contract and i shall be phoning regularly to complain every time I get less than what i pay for.

Hi. I feel I should point out that you pay for a contended 2Mb service which means you will probably not receive and definitely should not expect to receive 2Mb 24/7. That's why it is advertised at Up To 2Mb.

If you want an uncontended 2Mb leased line which will guarantee you 2Mb 24/7 then you will have to pay hundreds a month for the privilege.

Maybe Virign are not being explicit enough on this point? What did you think the Up To meant when you signed up?

As Turkey Machine says there are mixed messages coming from Virgin which probably explains this
common unrealistic expectation. The marketing dept talk in terms of lightning fast and the mother of. All of which imply uncontended. Yet at the same time they state Up To to imply contention. They can't have it both ways!

Personally I would like to see the ASA require that all cable speeds are advertised with a target minimum and target maximum speed e.g. 5-10Mb for L. This would not be a guaranteed minimum but a level under which Virgin agree they are under delivering. I think without a target minimum the up to is as Turkey Machine says too much of a get out clause.

moroboshi · 10-05-2009, 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by caph

Hi. I feel I should point out that you pay for a contended 2Mb service which means you will probably not receive and definitely should not expect to receive 2Mb 24/7. That's why it is advertised at Up To 2Mb.

If you want an uncontended 2Mb leased line which will guarantee you 2Mb 24/7 then you will have to pay hundreds a month for the priviledge.

Maybe Virign are not being explicit enough on this point? What did you think the Up To meant when you signed up?

This is way beyond the understanding of the average consumer. They see something advertised as Xmbit and expect to get that. If you bought a car which was advertised as being able to do up to 100mph you would expect it to actually do that. If not car makers could advertise them as up to 1000mph knowing full well that was impossible. Virgin should advertise their products based on actual real world speeds, so a 10mb line would be sold as '2mbit average (max 10mbit subject to impossibly light network conditions)'.

Of course it would only be an aproximate, and is far less headline grabbing than the imaginary speeds they put on their PR crap. I've been paying for 20mbit for a long time and have very rarely got over 2mbit in the last 6 months. Mostly I get less than 1mbit and it's not uncommon to get less then 100kbits. So is selling the service I'm receiving as 20mbit seem fair? I'd say not!

Retrovertigo · 10-05-2009, 09:56

They need to be made to do what a lot of ADSL providers seem to be doing. I have been checking out various ADSL packages as an alternative because my service is beyond broken and has been for almost a fortnight now. Every provider I have checked out has asked me to type in my postcode and it then tells me what speed I can expect based on how far I am from an exchange.

Vm need to do this with high capacity areas. They should point out that if you live in the area I do for example, that 20meg is a pipe dream that will never be fulfilled. I have been getting less than 100k the last couple of weeks, and have been on average, getting 2meg or less of an evening for well over a year. If you apply for BB with VM then if you put a postcode in close to my area, it should state that higher speeds aren't available. But instead they boast of super fast speeds and hide the "up to" away in small print as though it is almost a non-issue that doesn't affect cable at all.

moroboshi · 10-05-2009, 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retrovertigo

Every provider I have checked out has asked me to type in my postcode and it then tells me what speed I can expect based on how far I am from an exchange.

Which ones? All the ones I have tried want a BT phone line to do a speed check too, which of course a Virgin 'customer' I don't have...

Toto · 10-05-2009, 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by moroboshi

Which ones? All the ones I have tried want a BT phone line to do a speed check too, which of course a Virgin 'customer' I don't have...

Do you know any neighbours who could help?

Retrovertigo · 10-05-2009, 10:22

Ah well I have a B.T phone and so it doesn't seem to have been a problem to be honest. I only get BB from VM, I wouldn't dream of paying them for any other services as I wouldn't trust them to be able to always deliver them to me based in the BB service I get.

As examples, Plusnet give an estimated speed, B.T give an estimated speed, B.E gave an estimated speed. They all gave roughly the same estimation of at least 7-8meg stable. Plus they all spelt out exactly what can affect speed. Oh and Sky did as well. I have had good recommendations about Sky from friends (I already get SKY Tv). Plus SKY are one of the few who don't have download limits in place.

BenMcr · 10-05-2009, 10:41

Yes, but that's you sync speed, based on the distance from the exchange. ADSL ISPs would still quote that to you even if you then got 2Mbit due to capacity issues

caph · 10-05-2009, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by moroboshi

This is way beyond the understanding of the average consumer. They see something advertised as Xmbit and expect to get that. If you bought a car which was advertised as being able to do up to 100mph you would expect it to actually do that. If not car makers could advertise them as up to 1000mph knowing full well that was impossible. Virgin should advertise their products based on actual real world speeds, so a 10mb line would be sold as '2mbit average (max 10mbit subject to impossibly light network conditions)'.

Of course it would only be an aproximate, and is far less headline grabbing than the imaginary speeds they put on their PR crap. I've been paying for 20mbit for a long time and have very rarely got over 2mbit in the last 6 months. Mostly I get less than 1mbit and it's not uncommon to get less then 100kbits. So is selling the service I'm receiving as 20mbit seem fair? I'd say not!

I have to say I pretty much agree with you Moroboshi, but until someone forces them to do as you say, then we're stuck with the Up To. As for people not understanding that the service is contended. Well, that doesn't change the fact that it is contended, that's why I try to inform people who can't understand why they don't get maximum speed all the time. I do think that you are underestimating people though, if someone told me I could get Up To a certain return on an investment, I would make damned sure I knew what actual returns were likely to be before I invested.

Your car analogy is quite good apart from the fact that in order to make it apply to the real world you have to figure in congestion, just the same as in the real world for broadband you have to figure in contention. In my case I live right near a bad part of the M1 which pretty much mirrors my broadband speed! You can have an up to 120mph car but try getting anywhere near that speed on a Friday evening along the M1 near Nottingham!!! Your car's max speed is like broadband's headline speed. Your car's actual performance is limited by congenstion on the roads just like internet traffic is limited by contention.

Your case is slightly different. It would appear that you are on a heavily oversubscribed UBR which under normal circumstances would be split by the capacity planning team. Unfortunately this is all on hold and has been for several months (possibly a year or two?) while they roll out 50Mb. I am in exactly the same predicament as you paying for 20Mb but getting sub 500K speeds in the evenings (although I'm currently speed testing at 3Mb which is good for me!).

The standard contention issue and Virgin's flat refusal to manage oversubscription for the duration of the 50Mb rollout (which I believe to be a diabolical decision) are two separate issues that shouldn't be confused.

I still think that a target minimum as well as a target maximum is the way to go. Then everyone is clear up front what is an acceptable range of average speed.

Retrovertigo · 10-05-2009, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Yes, but that's you sync speed, based on the distance from the exchange. ADSL ISPs would still quote that to you even if you then got 2Mbit due to capacity issues

True, but at least from the start you know that there are factors that affect speed. And I happen to know from around half a dozen guys who have B.E in my area (within 5-10 minutes of me), that 8meg minimum and stable, is readily available.

When I joined NTL, there was no mention of capacity etc. In fact one time when I was having speed issues, I called tech support and expressed a desire to stay if tyhey could fix it as I preferred cable to ADSL, to which the girl replied "yes, because with cable we guarantee the speed and with ADSL it depends on how far you live from an exchange".

Now, you can put that down to staff not being trained properly or whatever. But that is what they were telling people - that you got the guaranteed speed. It is still the implication now to be honest, that cable blows ADSL away. But my uncle on Talktalk who lives 10 minutes from me, gets a far better service than I do, and his is free!

They need to be more transparent that the area you live in plays a huge factor on the speeds they can deliver.