The existence of God

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Russ B

It's a stereotypical view of believers though. I haven't seen any post from a believer which implies they are in any way a 'better' person than an atheist.

Maybe not, but I have seen quite a few posts saying that religion formed a framework or morals and ethics (and as a result bettered society)which would have been missing had religion not arrived. I've been guilty of using that argument myself in the past.

Let's take a view on adultery for example. Did people stop commiting adultery because Jesus or Muhammed told them too? What about those that weren't commiting adultery in the first place? I know plenty of religious people who have a bit on the side and hope for forgiveness on the Day of Judgement. And I know a lot of athiests who would never look at another women even though they dont believe that they will be punished for it. Did we really need religion to form a moral framework? Or are morals just a feature of people irregardless of the God (or lack of God) they follow?

[Jimmy-J]

Originally Posted by Chris

In your own personal life, what level of direct intervention from God would you tolerate, on occasions when in God's opinion your behaviour falls short of the standards God requires?

I'm finding it difficult to seriously answer that question, because I don't believe there is a God. And even if there were it would be Gods behaviour that falls short of what I require.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Did people stop commiting adultery because Jesus or Muhammed told them too? What about those that weren't commiting adultery in the first place?

I don't know what Mohammed said but Jesus didn't tell anyone not to commit adultary - that's by the by but my point is what he did say was to judge others as you want to be judged (and not the misconception of "you should not judge").

No-one here is saying Christians (or any believers) lead a better life or are better people. As I said earlier that's a stereotypical view of believers and is rarely (if ever) found to be true in reality outside of the extremists.

People only tend to listen to those that make the headlines....

Agreed that biblical principles were used in many cases to set up a moral foundation for government, usually when chaos reigned. But a good example of an major exception is the Romans.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Russ B

I don't know what Mohammed said but Jesus didn't tell anyone not to commit adultary - that's by the by but my point is what he did say was to judge others as you want to be judged (and not the misconception of "you should not judge")..

But do you need to follow religion or be religious to follow the principle of
judge others as you want to be judged?

As for the "you should not judge" misconception I would have to argue that that is what a large majority of religious people do in fact end up doing, whatever their religious background. And I'd also say that there are more religious people who end up judging non religious people than the other way round.

By the way - what is the view of Christianity regarding adultery. (i just found this link on a quick google search - gospels according to the teachings of Jesus - http://www.bibletexts.com/terms/adultery.htm) What message did Jesus bring down that provided a moral code to the people of the time? Do Christians believe in the 10 commandments? Did Jesus not come to re-inforce those when the people moved away from them and back into their 'heathen' ways? All genuine questions, in case you're wondering.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

But do you need to follow religion or be religious to follow the principle of judge others as you want to be judged?

That's not what I was saying - my point was that's just one of many good moral codes that religion has suggested/reinforced.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

As for the "you should not judge" misconception I would have to argue that that is what a large majority of religious people do in fact end up doing, whatever their religious background. And I'd also say that there are more religious people who end up judging non religious people than the other way round.

I don't think they're the majority at all. But if such people fall in to a stereotype then they will only serve to reinforce it.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

By the way - what is the view of Christianity regarding adultery.

Ok one at a time then....adultary (in essence any sexual relations outside of marriage) is sinful.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

What message did Jesus bring down that provided a moral code to the people of the time?

He brought greater understanding what what God wanted. Like Eddie Izzard says, the God of the OT is viewed as a 'Victorian dad' by many. Jesus preached more of love and understanding. Today he'd be called a lefty/liberal/do-gooder etc...

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Do Christians believe in the 10 commandments?

Christians are expected to abide by them...

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Did Jesus not come to re-inforce those when the people moved away from them and back into their 'heathen' ways?

Reinforce and give better understanding, would be my take on it.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

All genuine questions, in case you're wondering.

Isn't that what you usually ask?

Originally Posted by Product 13

I'm finding it difficult to seriously answer that question, because I don't believe there is a God. And even if there were it would be Gods behaviour that falls short of what I require.

Fair enough, but if you hoped for an answer to your earlier question, presumably you're able to hold the discussion on a purely theoretical level? Otherwise what was the point in asking?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Russ - just some questions (for you and other Christians)

So is the God of the OT different to the God that Christians follow now? When you say that Jesus was more of a liberal, he would still have been preaching God's message right? HAs God evolved over time. To say he has might be the same as suggesting he was not perfect at the beginning? Can that be possible with someone as great as God?

Russ - in your earlier post you suggested that Jesus did not tell anyone to commit adultery. Then you say he bought better understanding of what God wanted. The Bible contains many verses regarding adultery being sinful so surely one would have to say that Jesus also told the people not to commit adultary (see my link in previous post).

In regard to my comment about more religious people judging athiests than the other way round - you only have to look at the messages outside churches on billboards, being preached in churches and mosques and other places of worship that this is the case. Apart from that thing we had with the athiest ads on buses when was the last time you saw a big billboard saying Reliogioous people are not going to Heaven? The scale of organised condemnation of non believers is far greater than the other way round.

By the way I'm not having a go at Christianity. I am saying this last point is common is true with all religions.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Russ - just some questions (for you and other Christians)

So is the God of the OT different to the God that Christians follow now? When you say that Jesus was more of a liberal, he would still have been preaching God's message right? HAs God evolved over time. To say he has might be the same as suggesting he was not perfect at the beginning? Can that be possible with someone as great as God?

There is one and only God. Jesus (being part of the God Trinity) had the same message but people of the time were taking God's Word and using it for their own ends rather than to celebrate him with. For example it was used between people to settle arguments etc rather than taking it to the elders/leaders who were in a better position to use his Word.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Russ - in your earlier post you suggested that Jesus did not tell anyone to commit adultery. Then you say he bought better understanding of what God wanted. The Bible contains many verses regarding adultery being sinful so surely one would have to say that Jesus also told the people not to commit adultary (see my link in previous post).

Jesus did not change God's Word. But he preached in a way that people would understand better and hopefully utilise it more productively (for example it's why he's recorded as telling so many parables and stories - in order for people to understand his preaching better). Many religious leaders of the time were 'drunk with power', to paraphrase the good Book.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

In regard to my comment about more religious people judging athiests than the other way round - you only have to look at the messages outside churches on billboards, being preached in churches and mosques and other places of worship that this is the case. Apart from that thing we had with the athiest ads on buses when was the last time you saw a big billboard saying Reliogioous people are not going to Heaven? The scale of organised condemnation of non believers is far greater than the other way round.

Well you can't expect Christianity to not spread the word, or to not promote itself. Obviously we want people on board although saying that I have never seen a church ad which says its followers are in any way 'better people' than those who are not amongst its fellowship. Tolerance and understanding for everyone is one of the most important messages any Christian groups can promote.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

So is the God of the OT different to the God that Christians follow now? When you say that Jesus was more of a liberal, he would still have been preaching God's message right? HAs God evolved over time. To say he has might be the same as suggesting he was not perfect at the beginning? Can that be possible with someone as great as God?

God hasn't evolved over time, but it has been necessary for our understanding of him to grow to the point where we recognised our need of him and were able to accept his solution to the problem of sin, the solution being Jesus.

God is a God of covenant agreements between himself and his followers. An early example is that between himself and Abraham. Later came the Law of Moses, given by God to the nation that decended from Abraham via Isaac and Jacob. After that came the New Covenant, detailed in the New Testament, in which believers are born again by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, and as a result have God's law "written not on tablets of stone but on the 'tablets' of their hearts".

All the Old Testament dealings between God and people were intended to lead to Jesus and the covenant that he brought. Throughout the operations of those covenants people came to understand more of the character of God, but God himself was always consistent throughout. God couldn't give the Law of Moses to Abraham because that Law required the existence of a functioning nation to operate it. And he couldn't give Jesus to the young nation of Israel because the Law of Moses needed time to do its work - namely, to show them the impossibility of living up to God's righteous standards by their own efforts.

The Bible is a bit like a polaroid picture of God. The more time and daylight you give it, the better the image, but the final state of the Polaroid is still a poor substitute for the real thing. Mind you even in eternity, we won't ever get the full measure of him.

Jesus absolutely upheld the righteous requirement of the Law of Moses, a Law which had long ago established the principle of a sacrifice being made as the penalty for sin. Jesus made himself that sacrifice - a sacrifice so holy that it never needs to be repeated, unlike the sacrifices in the Law which had to be made regularly.

In regard to my comment about more religious people judging athiests than the other way round - you only have to look at the messages outside churches on billboards, being preached in churches and mosques and other places of worship that this is the case. Apart from that thing we had with the athiest ads on buses when was the last time you saw a big billboard saying Reliogioous people are not going to Heaven? The scale of organised condemnation of non believers is far greater than the other way round.

By the way I'm not having a go at Christianity. I am saying this last point is common is true with all religions.

Christianity is an evangelistic religion. If you want to go about promoting a religion that claims to be the exclusive truth, it's inevitable that your message will end up claiming that other religions and philosophies are not truth. I accept there are good and bad ways of going about this, but it's not something that should be shied away from.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Chris

God hasn't evolved over time, but it has been necessary for our understanding of him to grow to the point where we recognised our need of him and were able to accept his solution to the problem of sin, the solution being Jesus.

So he didn't explain it very well first time round?

Originally Posted by danielf

So he didn't explain it very well first time round?

No - his explanation of it has become progressively more detailed. But the promise that he would send someone who would defeat sin, characterised in the beginning of Genesis as a serpent, is right there in the same chapter of Genesis.

[Jimmy-J]

Originally Posted by Chris

Fair enough, but if you hoped for an answer to your earlier question, presumably you're able to hold the discussion on a purely theoretical level? Otherwise what was the point in asking?

The more I think about Gods and religions, the more I find myself thinking what's the point in questioning it? But then again I also think it should be questioned, because all I can see is death, destruction and endless slavery.

Nihilism and existentialism all wrapped up in one happy package, eh?

Questioning is good - but so is considering any answers given, otherwise why question (not accept - consider).

[lucy7]

Just wish to type that this Christan lady and hubby and all our JW buddies and my old BAC ones never have thought we are better than any non believers in God!

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:11 ----------

By the way, folk who have a love for God and follow his path, do not have it easy at all, infact to lead a life which is governered by Gods advice can be darned hard at times!
The world we live in today can make it hard!

I met nasty look down their noses cheapskate mean Christians,but then I've met their atheist counterparts too.

Met some truly inspiring people and quite a few of them were Christians and a fair few were not and quite a lot were atheist.