The existence of God - Page 26

03-04-2009, 21:14

But what if he/she/it is testing our faith?

**Chris** · 03-04-2009, 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

I believe that if there were a God he wouldn't allow suffering/torture and pain.

But do you think you could cope with having many of the decisions you make about the way you live your life countermanded?

Gary L · 03-04-2009, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by xocemp

But what if he/she/it is testing our faith?

Then how long does this test have to go on for? till we die?
Do we forgive him for the torture/suffering and pain at the end when we get a prize for putting up with it?

What is that prize that we are so looking forward to?
Or should I say you/they?

What about you? did God create man, or did man create God, and why?

03-04-2009, 21:22

How do you know it is a test?
Forgive him for torture and suffering, is this not man doing onto man?
What do you think the prize might be, if there is one?

Gary L · 03-04-2009, 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

But do you think you could cope with having many of the decisions you make about the way you live your life countermanded?

Why does it have to be countermanded, when it didn't have to happen in the first place?

---------- Post added at 22:24 ---------- Previous post was at 22:22 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by xocemp

How do you know it is a test?
Forgive him for torture and suffering, is this not man doing onto man?
What do you think the prize might be, if there is one?

I've answered your 2 questions. unless the answer to this 3rd one is relevant to you in making your mind up to the same question, then I ask again. What do you think, and why?

**Chris** · 03-04-2009, 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

Why does it have to be countermanded, when it didn't have to happen in the first place?

Gary, what brand of coffee is in your kitchen? What was the last bar of chocolate you bought?

03-04-2009, 21:32

We know what you think "the prize" may be. Are you sticking with this now or changing your mind?
By this statement you are saying there is a God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

He made us, and won't help us. he leaves us to kill and to make each other suffer. it's all happening at the moment and we are all content because we know that after we have gone through the suffering stages and eventually die. we're going to heaven where there is no suffering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

I've answered your 2 questions. unless the answer to this 3rd one is relevant to you in making your mind up to the same question, then I ask again. What do you think, and why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

badgering them could lead into forcing them. which can get you into lots of trouble

Gary L · 03-04-2009, 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

Gary, what brand of coffee is in your kitchen? What was the last bar of chocolate you bought?

Nescafe and a Whispa?

---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by xocemp

We know what you think "the prize" may be. Are you sticking with this now or changing your mind?
By this statement you are saying there is a God?

Someone will tell you where you keep going wrong soon

**Chris** · 03-04-2009, 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

Nescafe and a Whispa?

Well Nestle, whose bottom line you're swelling with your coffee purchases, has an appalling reputation for screwing more product for less dosh from its third world producers. To say nothing of the totally a-moral way it markets its infant formula in rural African communities.

And Wispa is produced by Cadbury's, which owns a 'fair trade' brand called Green and Blacks. If Cadbury labels Green and Blacks chocolate as 'fair trade', what, by implication, is the chocolate that is not labled 'fair'?

The point I'm making is, suffering, and the causes of it, are always a lot closer to home than most people are prepared to admit. If God were to intervene to deal with all suffering, rather than just the big, headline-grabbing suffering you had in mind, it would have a very significant day-to-day impact on the way you live your life. Are you prepared to give up the personal free will that you would have to lose in order for God to do that?

**Hugh** · 03-04-2009, 21:43

As I have said before, on many threads like this -
If you have faith, good for you, as long as you don't expect all others to agree with you, and are willing to live and let live
If you don't have faith, good for you, as long as you don't expect all others to agree with you, and are willing to live and let live.

03-04-2009, 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

Nescafe and a Whispa?

---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------

Someone will tell you where you keep going wrong soon

Please do tell me where I keep going wrong and why.

/On topic/
Do you think everyone will get into heaven?

Gary L · 03-04-2009, 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

The point I'm making is, suffering, and the causes of it, are always a lot closer to home than most people are prepared to admit. If God were to intervene to deal with all suffering, rather than just the big, headline-grabbing suffering you had in mind, it would have a very significant day-to-day impact on the way you live your life. Are you prepared to give up the personal free will that you would have to lose in order for God to do that?

Yes. if he were to (put it rather bluntly) show his face and tell us to stop it. we would all probably stop ourselves doing it.

You're giving me what can be seen as excuses for him not showing his presence. and I am questioning as to why it's such a big deal for his presence and intervention to be made.

---------- Post added at 22:54 ---------- Previous post was at 22:52 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by xocemp

Please do tell me where I keep going wrong and why.

/On topic/
Do you think everyone will get into heaven?

You are proving to me that you have no intention of discussion of the subject. all you do is keep asking questions in order to prove some sort of point. which happens to be misunderstood by yourself when making it.

Can you answer questions in between asking them too?

**Chris** · 03-04-2009, 21:56

I'm not giving excuses Gary. God is prepared to deal with the cause of human suffering, one human at a time. He is doing it. He's doing it in me, and he is graciously only doing it as I realise the suffering I am causing other people and ask him to help where I acknowlege I'm powerless. He does it this way in every individual human being who asks for his help, and he is gracious enough not to force his help on anyone who doesn't want it.

Suffering is not God's fault. It is the fault of every individual who, when push comes to shove, would rather put their own personal freedom and comfort ahead of anyone else's. I include myself in this. I have barely started the journey he wants to take me on.

Gary L · 03-04-2009, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

I'm not giving excuses Gary. God is prepared to deal with the cause of human suffering, one human at a time. He is doing it. He's doing it in me, and he is graciously only doing it as I realise the suffering I am causing other people and ask him to help where I acknowlege I'm powerless. He does it this way in every individual human being who asks for his help, and he is gracious enough not to force his help on anyone who doesn't want it.

Suffering is not God's fault. It is the fault of every individual who, when push comes to shove, would rather put their own personal freedom and comfort ahead of anyone else's. I include myself in this. I have barely started the journey he wants to take me on.

What about those who don't want to suffer and be subject to pain, who don't know how to ask for help? or those who might not know how, or don't want to ask for the help in stopping subjecting the pain?

To me it's all about if you don't ask you don't get. if you don't let him know that you think he's great he doesn't want to know and will ignore you.

03-04-2009, 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

You are proving to me that you have no intention of discussion of the subject. all you do is keep asking questions in order to prove some sort of point. which happens to be misunderstood by yourself when making it.

Can you answer questions in between asking them too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

<snip>
don't know if I'm allowed to question. that seems to be up to certain individuals as of late

Yes I could answer questions in between but I don't want to for now, I'm taking in what you post and 'learning'.