The existence of God - Page 21

**Maggy** · 03-04-2009, 10:24

about half an hour ago I was just thinking of suggesting we got on topic and here we are back on topic.

Well done...

**Hugh** · 03-04-2009, 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

Yes of course, you can construct a theory to fit anything. This is an issue for physicists, I'm failing to see how god comes into it.

Dark matter, dark energy - these have been postulated to fill the gaps; whats the difference between these and "faith".

downquark1 · 03-04-2009, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

You make me smile sometimes.

Why?

It's this old spin trick: "Look the scientists are uncertain - they know they are WRONG!"

or

"LOOK the scientists are unquestioning - they are dogmatic!"

Russ · 03-04-2009, 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

Yes of course, you can construct a theory to fit anything. This is an issue for physicists, I'm failing to see how god comes into it.

If you specifically don't want to see it then you never will.

**Hugh** · 03-04-2009, 10:29

No one has said they are wrong - they are saying why don't we look at other options.

It would appear it is (imho) you who are "spinning" by trying to make everything black and white, when it is, again imho, a voyage of discovery.

downquark1 · 03-04-2009, 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Dark matter, dark energy - these have been postulated to fill the gaps; whats the difference between these and "faith".

Yes and no. Dark matter and dark energy are name for the numbers we use to balance the equations to make them work with what we see. We know something is causing these effect we just don't know what.

Or the laws are wrong, in which case we need to discover new ones.

**Chris** · 03-04-2009, 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

Why?

... because I suspect there wisnae a trace of irony intended when you posted, in a thread about the existence of God, that questions about the origin of the universe are "... an issue for physicists, I'm failing to see how god comes into it."

downquark1 · 03-04-2009, 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

... because I suspect there wisnae a trace of irony intended when you posted, in a thread about the existence of God, that questions about the origin of the universe are "... an issue for physicists, I'm failing to see how god comes into it."

Well even if we find a perfect answer that does not "disprove god". Even if god did do it there's no reason we can't discover "how".

This is god of the gaps theology.

**Hugh** · 03-04-2009, 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

Yes and no. Dark matter and dark energy are name for the numbers we use to balance the equations to make them work with what we see. We know something is causing these effect we just don't know what.

Or the laws are wrong, in which case we need to discover new ones.

I'm sorry, you obviously can't see the irony in that statement - it would appear it alright for physicists to have "faith" in something that "makes things work", but not for others to have a different sort of "faith".

downquark1 · 03-04-2009, 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar

No one has said they are wrong - they are saying why don't we look at other options.

It would appear it is (imho) you who are "spinning" by trying to make everything black and white, when it is, again imho, a voyage of discovery.

What do you think cosmologists are doing? People are paid to do this. They don't sit on their asses or go out preaching preexisting conclusions.

---------- Post added at 11:35 ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar

I'm sorry, you obviously can't see the irony in that statement - it would appear it alright for physicists to have "faith" in something that "makes things work", but not for others to have a different sort of "faith".

Yes and no, there is a PHYSICAL measurable number of unknown origin.

If you loose Â£100 from your bank account, do you go looking for where it went or do you shrug and say it was an act of god? Or do you say there is no money missing?

---------- Post added at 11:37 ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 ----------

And we don't have faith in dark matter its a name given to something we have yet to find out.

And we are looking.

**Hugh** · 03-04-2009, 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

That second website has discovery and " Christian Research " institutes finger prints all over it.

The first website sounds like the typical whining when someone is denied funding. I really don't get this idea that scientists resent new ideas. New ideas when proven correct make a scientist rich and famous, it also opens up new areas of avenue to get your name into the books, you can work out a constant or an equation and get your name stuck on it, old ideas tend to be already saturated.

This is not to say that the big bang theory is definitely correct. But merely there is a lacking of alternatives at the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

What do you think cosmologists are doing? People are paid to do this. They don't sit on their asses or go out preaching preexisting conclusions.

Sounds fairly like preaching preexisting conclusions.....

btw, I think cosmologists are mainly "sitting on their asses" - they sure aren't out at the Large Magellanic Cloud.....

**Chris** · 03-04-2009, 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

If you loose Â£100 from your bank account, do you go looking for where it went or do you shrug and say it was an act of god?

False dilemma.

And please have a read of this.

downquark1 · 03-04-2009, 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

False dilemma.

True, you could do nothing at all or go into denial.

**Chris** · 03-04-2009, 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

True, you could do nothing at all or go into denial.

Or you could accept that it's perfectly possible for you to do both - that is, go looking for it, whilst believing the original theft to be an 'act of God'.

downquark1 · 03-04-2009, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Sounds fairly like preaching preexisting conclusions.....

btw, I think cosmologists are mainly "sitting on their asses" - they sure aren't out at the Large Magellanic Cloud.....

There are multiple reasons for why someone is denied funding. They maybe untalented or the committee has no confidence they will find anything.

Perhaps I should qualify what I said. There are of course always alternatives, but to be taken seriously they must account for known observations and make correct predictions the existing one can't

---------- Post added at 11:48 ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

Or you could accept that it's perfectly possible for you to do both - that is, go looking for it, whilst believing the original theft to be an 'act of God'.

Well you could, or you could suppose that the banking system or the rules of arithmetic have spontaneously failed.