The existence of God - Page 8

idi banashapan · 20-03-2009, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Love the definition of an apathetic Agnostic -
"the view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic"

spot on - perhaps some people are looking for something to sway them one way or the other?

**Maggy** · 20-03-2009, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bender

you forgot to mention those of us who class ourselves as agnostic in one form or another!

Sitting on the fence again...

mischievious · 20-03-2009, 18:57

Personally fence sitting seems best in this regard.

It is so far the only logical answer, until a new entity is entered into the debate which is able to resolve the situation.

Since no logical Truth can be achieved from Religion nor Atheism the only logical conclusion is Agnostisism. I suspect that this comes under intuitive logic

**Hugh** · 20-03-2009, 19:24

Do or do not - there is no try......

Raistlin · 20-03-2009, 19:25

There is no spoon.

downquark1 · 20-03-2009, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by mischievious

I was a reasonable example and an attempt at a logical one but the logic didn't work. You failed to resolve a logical truth from it becasue you had set it up with dirty data.

You could have gone down the road of:

There is life on Earth
Bacteria has been discovered on Mars (Hence Life)
Therefore the is life on other planets.

I only take issue with the "logical likelyhood" of ray gun weilding aliens. The example by TheDon given previously was a myriad of stepping stones in logic which was reasonable but not logical per se. The initial premise led from one maybe statement to another much like chinese whispers.

I agree that it is likely that sentient existence exists on one or more planets in the universe.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...New-Earth.html

I was not attempting to attain a final truth, note the words "likely". Being a staunch empiricist I would demand observational verification at which point the logical argument becomes rather moot.

Quote:

Since no logical Truth can be achieved from Religion nor Atheism the only logical conclusion is Agnostisism. I suspect that this comes under intuitive logic

Ah the old hard atheist trick.

Well this is mainly an issue of semantics, but theism and atheism tend be statements of belief while gnosticism and agnosticism are statements of knowledge. So they are not mutually exclusive.

idi banashapan · 20-03-2009, 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Sitting on the fence again...

in contrast to a situation whereby there is a lot of interesting 'evidence' pointing in both directions, this topic has NO conclusive evidence in either direction.

how can one possibly make an informed decision on the truth of the matter when the matter is based on a faith to either follow or not to? faith, as already mentioned in this thread, does not follow the laws of logic - which requires an element of proven knowledge in order to come to a conclusion.

I do believe there is something far greater than ourselves that exists as a force or being in the universe. but with regards to what it's influence on us is in a physical sense, the form it takes or the powers it possesses, I really don't know. I think it would be naive to think that this planet is the only one to harbour the force of life. as we already know, microbes have been found on Mars. but we simply do not know if we are the most advanced form of life in our universe. likewise, we don't know if Earth holds essentially the most primative life.

so tell me, do you believe Maggy, or do you not? and more to the point, what are you basing that decision on? I would be very surprised if you can answer that without refering to terms such as 'belief', 'faith', 'feel' or 'think' as none of these are based on logic when the context is an internal emotion, which is essentially the driving force behind whether you follow God or not whole-heartedly. unless of course, you are agnostic... in which case, logic holds a higher presidence in you decision making.

**Hugh** · 20-03-2009, 19:33

Ah, logic - the reason why two or more people will run into a burning building to save a child.

Oh, sorry - no it isn't, is it?

lucy7 · 20-03-2009, 19:36

You can only make an informed decision on, is God real or not, by looking into it for your self, and not by a few(?) posts on a forum topic!

downquark1 · 20-03-2009, 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Ah, logic - the reason why two or more people will run into a burning building to save a child.

Oh, sorry - no it isn't, is it?

Given any number of premises it is perfectly logical. Your premises seems to be that the 2 lives are higher than that of the child, who decided that each life is equally valued?

Logic does not give you an ultimate goal it only gives you a means. This is why spock is not "logical"

idi banashapan · 20-03-2009, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Ah, logic - the reason why two or more people will run into a burning building to save a child.

Oh, sorry - no it isn't, is it?

humans are driven by basic instinct, like many animals. one of these instincts that we possess is to preserve and continue own gene line. this is a very strong instinct. second is to ensure the young grow strong in the clan in order that it may continue to flourish and aid and protect the elders.

yes. logic is the reason.

---------- Post added at 20:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:40 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucy7

You can only make an informed decision on, is God real or not, by looking into it for your self, and not by a few(?) posts on a forum topic!

an informed decision is no necessarily one based on the truth though. which ever side you look into, the conclusions found will be based on the authors opinion, not on hard, physical evidence. this is why it is called 'faith'.

peanut · 20-03-2009, 19:42

I'd like to know how some find God when the odds are against them. When things go really tits up they believe or find something out of nowhere. If logic applied there then they'd go the other way even more.

Ok the odds seems to be stacked against myself, it's these times where I find the terms 'it's God will or it's a test' totally condescending.

Too impossible to figure out, maybe that's the trouble I don't know.

idi banashapan · 20-03-2009, 19:50

logic and faith are at opposite ends of the scale. they will never likely meet. this is why I'm finding this fascinating.

lucy7 · 20-03-2009, 20:13

Which authors opinion Bender?

---------- Post added at 21:13 ---------- Previous post was at 21:09 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by peanutkp

I'd like to know how some find God when the odds are against them. When things go really tits up they believe or find something out of nowhere. If logic applied there then they'd go the other way even more.

Ok the odds seems to be stacked against myself, it's these times where I find the terms 'it's God will or it's a test' totally condescending.

Too impossible to figure out, maybe that's the trouble I don't know.

Yes, thats does appear to happen!
Paul Gascoigne being the latest celeb to of found God!
Was God ever lost?

I think its just when things happen in folks lives, they start to think a bit more deeply about "whats it all about, why are we here, is this all there is" and such like stuff.

downquark1 · 20-03-2009, 20:14

To expand my point, this is why Voltaire said "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

A lot of religious fundamentalists are being perfectly logically given their premises (i.e. what they believe).