The existence of God - Page 4

TheDon · 19-03-2009, 00:11

Essentially all questions like this are a waste of time, as you can never prove or disprove the existance of God by a logic puzzle due to the very nature of religion.

Religion is based on faith, and faith exists without proof, the second you try to bring logic into a debate on religion you lose because religion exists outside of the realms of logic. It's not logical, it doesn't make scientific sense, and cannot be shown to be the way, this is why religions are faiths and not sciences.

To say that people suffer therefore there is no God misses the point, if people who didn't follow a God suffered, whilst those that did didn't, that would be proof of the existence of God, and therefore the faith would be removed. Religion cannot exist without faith, faith is the very essence of religion, it's not something you know, but something you feel.

You can attribute the suffering of people as tests of faith, maybe not for you as an individual, but for humanity as a whole, you may live a sin free life, and you may still suffer, how you react to the fact that that happens could be how God judges you. Even though everything has gone against you, and everything seems to be falling apart, do you still turn to God? Or do you dismiss him from your life?

Now, I'm an atheist, and quite set in my beliefs, I don't believe in God, and think religion was first developed as a way to control the unruley masses, the fear of God does wonders for keeping a society in check. But I'm not going to try to debate the existence of God on the basis of logic and reason, because I know that religion doesn't have either of these things, and it doesn't need to.

Slyone · 19-03-2009, 00:30

God no aliens yes

lucy7 · 19-03-2009, 06:10

All boils down to....
Was the earth and human life created by an intelligent designer, or big bang theory and evolution.
Choice is ours to make, free will and all that.
The way to find out is to study both sides and make your own mind up!

I personally like that story!

---------- Post added at 07:10 ---------- Previous post was at 06:50 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J

With all due respect my original question was not aimed at you...And why should those of faith have to continually have to answer the same damned question? Which so often as Russ says descend into the sly digs and abusive comments about their beliefs.I'm nt saying that you or Bender WILL do this but you can be ceratin that there are those on CF who will inevitably do so.

With respect, there are new members coming on the site daily, some will like the chance to share in a topic such as this, or just to read other peoples view pionts. I know for the more seasoned folk on here it may become boring. Or if you have seen a thred go into a downward spiral and then hard to moderate, it must be tough. I for one love to see other peoples view points on religion, even if I've heard them all before!!

Not a dig at anyone here at all by the way!

These type of topics I realise come up on forums and exchanges may get heated at times, but anyone with a true belief in God will not take offence, and see through the wind up merchants sly digs and abusive comments, and would focus on the folks comments who are properly involved in the topic!

TheNorm · 19-03-2009, 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J

...And why should those of faith have to continually have to answer the same damned question? ....

Because religious belief is a powerful influence in society?

To use an analogy: Don't you agree that we should continually question a drug company about a medicine that has been available for decades? Or are you happy to accept the "authoritative answer", and not insist on examining the long-term safety data?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

.... But I'm not going to try to debate the existence of God on the basis of logic and reason, because I know that religion doesn't have either of these things, and it doesn't need to.

Well, logic sets us apart from the other animals. It's the best tool we have to differentiate between fact and fiction.

To use an analogy: Without logic we would still think the sun revolved around a flat earth.

lucy7 · 19-03-2009, 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

The painting's done.

Now, let me see if I can address a couple of the points here.

First thing to say about this is that the story is offered as a simple illustration of a single point, rather than as a complete exploration of the entirety of Christian theology. It's like a parable, the sort of story Jesus used to use to illustrate his sermons. The key to understanding these sorts of things is not to try to load symbolic meaning onto elements of the story that weren't intended to carry it, but are simply there to make the story possible.

You're right, if the barber was God he would have had a different perspective. But that's not necessary for the story to function. The simple point of the story is to say that suffering in the world is due to humankind's unwillingness for it to be dealt with according to God's expertise, even though that expertise is available.

The tramp in this story is more akin to the race as a whole, rather than any individual person. While there are people in the world who don't submit to God, there will always be those who seek to aggrandise themselves at the expense of others, and hence there will always be suffering.

Your first statement assumes that conceptually, there can only be a God if he (she/it if you like) acts the way you think he should. Your second statement accepts as a given the Christian beliefs about God's loving and forgiving nature whilst at the same time ignoring the Christian beliefs about his just nature. If you indulge in pick'n'mix theology you're bound to end up with some strange flavour combinations.

How am I doing so far?

Very very well!!

Saaf_laandon_mo · 19-03-2009, 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob M

You've kind of answered your own question.....

.....if God existed he wouldn't allow anybody to start any more threads on Cable Forum about Religion

Or it could be the devil at work.

**Hugh** · 19-03-2009, 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Or it could be the devil at work.

That's a bit harsh on the OP......

TheDon · 19-03-2009, 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNorm

Well, logic sets us apart from the other animals. It's the best tool we have to differentiate between fact and fiction.

To use an analogy: Without logic we would still think the sun revolved around a flat earth.

Just because you can't solve something logically it doesn't mean it's wrong.

To use an analogy: Logic would say that a particle will act the same way if it's observed as if it isn't. Yet the double slit experiment shows us that particles act differently when something is watching them, unobserved they act as waves, and observed they act as particles. In fact the entire quantum world, where all possible outcomes of an event exist in superposition, defies logic. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Of course not, we know it does.

To cast something aside because it's not logical is short sighted.

Logic cannot be applied to everything, religion is one of the many things that defies logic because it has to. Any deity worth it's salt will ensure that their religion is as illogical as possible, because they don't want it to be proven because they want followers of faith. There's nothing special about following something that has been proven.

downquark1 · 19-03-2009, 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

Just because you can't solve something logically it doesn't mean it's wrong.

To use an analogy: Logic would say that a particle will act the same way if it's observed as if it isn't. Yet the double slit experiment shows us that particles act differently when something is watching them, unobserved they act as waves, and observed they act as particles. In fact the entire quantum world, where all possible outcomes of an event exist in superposition, defies logic. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Of course not, we know it does.

To cast something aside because it's not logical is short sighted.

Logic cannot be applied to everything, religion is one of the many things that defies logic because it has to. Any deity worth it's salt will ensure that their religion is as illogical as possible, because they don't want it to be proven because they want followers of faith. There's nothing special about following something that has been proven.

Sorry for being so impersonal as to reply with a link, but he explains it better than I can: http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/200...cal_book_d.php

tweetypie/8 · 19-03-2009, 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bender

I'm not a deeply religious person, but I read a good story and wondered how others would take it. Forgive my ignorance if this is a well known story, but I'd not heard it before:

A man went to a barbershop to have his haircut and his beard trimmed.

As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.
They talked about so many things and various subjects. When they
eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:
"I don't believe that God exists."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer. "Well, you just have to go out
in the street to realize that, God doesn't exist. Tell me; if God exists,
would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children?

If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a
loving God who would allow all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't
want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left
the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long,
stringy, dirty hair and untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt. The
customer turned back and entered the barbershop again and he said to the
barber:

"You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here, and I am a
barber. And I just worked on you!"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did,
there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like
that man outside."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to
me."

"Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!
That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for
help.

That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

I can see the point of the man who had his beard cut, but does this story not miss the point that the barber is only a man. whereas God is seen as omnipresent / omnipotent?

Surely if there was a God, then the barber's point would hold true? why is there pain and suffering? And if God is seen as all-forgiving and loving, why is there a need for Hell? Would everyone not be accepted into God's Heaven if they are loved and forgiven by him?

many years ago i watched jess yates on songs of praise,he was discussing faith with two people a christian woman and a atheist man,on the conclusion of the debate the atheist asked the woman what she would do if after a lifetime acknowledging that there is a god and upon dying finding that there is no god,she replied nothing,she then put it to the man who was denying god and upon dying finding out that there is a god what would he do ? he couldnt answer the question.me personally i beleive in god as there has to be something better after a life on this earth.

TheDon · 19-03-2009, 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweetypie/8

me personally i beleive in god as there has to be something better after a life on this earth.

Why does there?

This is what I don't get, you'll see most religious people saying the same, yet there's no reason why there has to be, and when pushed most just say something along the lines of "this can't be all there is".

downquark1 · 19-03-2009, 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweetypie/8

many years ago i watched jess yates on songs of praise,he was discussing faith with two people a christian woman and a atheist man,on the conclusion of the debate the atheist asked the woman what she would do if after a lifetime acknowledging that there is a god and upon dying finding that there is no god,she replied nothing,she then put it to the man who was denying god and upon dying finding out that there is a god what would he do ? he couldnt answer the question.me personally i beleive in god as there has to be something better after a life on this earth.

Is the question no god or no afterlife?

If there was no afterlife you would not "find" it not there.

lucy7 · 19-03-2009, 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

Why does there?

This is what I don't get, you'll see most religious people saying the same, yet there's no reason why there has to be, and when pushed most just say something along the lines of "this can't be all there is".

That will be people with no real bible knowledge then!!!

CHiLL · 19-03-2009, 15:34

It's so much easier if you don't believe in God. :P

papa smurf · 19-03-2009, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHiLL

It's so much easier if you don't believe in God. :P

cant agree .
if you don't believe in god you have to look harder for the answers ,and you also have to make the best of the life you have instead of waiting for the mythical afterlife, the easy answer is its Gods will ,well that's my ten peneth