Legal action taken against Virgin Media throttling practices

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

Ben you do not seem to understand, with due respect , a contract has to be fair, anyone can challenge a contract in court, it is then for the district judge to decide if that contract is fair, I thought you would know that

What I'm trying to point out is that the term has been in place for almost 8 years - and in all that time neither the OP or anyone else has objected to it.

Surely time has to be a factor in this. If STM had been brought in and then the OP and others had immediately brought legal action then I could understand it

Or if Virgin did not allow people exit from the contracts to find an alternative I would understand it

But with the clause being there for 8 years, and STM being in place for 2 years without anyone doing so, personally (and in no way the view/policy/training or anything else of Virgin Media) I can't see this having any legs.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Or if Virgin did not allow people exit from the contracts to find an alternative I would understand it

People don't know STM is there. Virgin could say you're too late to cancel now it's been going on for 2 years.
It's unfair that they didn't tell anyone. and it will be seen as unfair in court.
it has to be. a judge could see it as it was

But with the clause being there for 8 years, and STM being in place for 2 years without anyone doing so, personally (and in no way the view/policy/training or anything else of Virgin Media) I can't see this having any legs.

At the very least they could be made to inform all their customers about STM. in my opinion that is the last thing they want you to know. they don't want you to know that your speed will be reduced after 20 or so mins of use.
they wouldn't get anyone to sign up if they knew that.

A clause can be in any contract for any lengh of time. it could have been in there for the last 50 years and was only now put into action.
but you need to tell people that it's now in action. otherwise it is unfair. especially when it's kept as quiet as possible that it's now there.
Virgin is no different to any company when unfair contract terms apply. and they won't be seen as such when challenged.


Some people don't want to download non stop and some people do. some people just want a near enough constant 10/20MB connection. not a connection that is a lot less for a few hours after using it for a few minutes.

[BenMcr]

A link to the Traffic Managment policy is on the Sales Website under the 'Need to Know' section. AFAIK there is also a link at the end when you place the order online

There is also a link at www.virginmedia.com/customers

In addition, all agents when selling/upgrading/downgrading broadband have to tell customers as part of the Broadband Honesty Statement as per the OFCOM code of practice

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

A link to the Traffic Managment policy is on the Sales Website under the 'Need to Know' section. AFAIK there is also a link at the end when you place the order online

There is also a link at www.virginmedia.com/customers

They are not prominent. we can argue all day amongst each other about whether it should or not be, and whether it's the customers or Virgins responsibility to either know or inform.
Virgin and even you can say it's there. but the truth is it's hidden amongst the Fastest the Unlimited and the enticing sign up prices

In addition, all agents when selling/upgrading/downgrading broadband have to tell customers as part of the Broadband Honesty Statement as per the OFCOM code of practice

In my experience that just isn't happening. just like entering a new 12 month contract without being told isn't happening.

[lymmranger]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

A link to the Traffic Managment policy is on the Sales Website under the 'Need to Know' section. AFAIK there is also a link at the end when you place the order online

There is also a link at www.virginmedia.com/customers

In addition, all agents when selling/upgrading/downgrading broadband have to tell customers as part of the Broadband Honesty Statement as per the OFCOM code of practice

Ben please do not take this thread as a personal insult - most posters are asking the same underlying question (it just happens to be a vm orientated site) see my post 179 - my comments are echoed on most ISP related sites

by the way thankyou for all your help here - you always try your best to be helpful - however this thread is about the "bigger" picture

[Magilla]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

A link to the Traffic Managment policy is on the Sales Website under the 'Need to Know' section. AFAIK there is also a link at the end when you place the order online

There is also a link at www.virginmedia.com/customers

In addition, all agents when selling/upgrading/downgrading broadband have to tell customers as part of the Broadband Honesty Statement as per the OFCOM code of practice

Having posed as a new customer several times over the last few months to check this and oversubscription issues, I can assure you that this does not happen.

[Mike_A]

Originally Posted by graf_von_anonym

Yes. I have found nothing but rampant pathalogical boosterism amongst Virgin Media staff...

I'm still not certain what you want from Virgin Media though. Some form of redress it's clear, but could you clearly state what it is that you seek?

Slightly unfair Baron Von, for most VM support staff seem to have a willingness to try and help (although there are also some rude and devious ones). What seems to pervade VM operations is policy which appears as indoctrination, the competent substitute in layman terms of which is brainwashing (the persistent fluid massage of the brain's amygdala, hippocampus, basal ganglia and other short to medium term memory centres with a distinct piece of information meant to enter the unconscious mind).

Ben et al do seem to try and help by putting forward a point of view as a basis for clients to attempt to understand what is going on from VM's perspective. That's great, and probing that point of view will assist get to the root of what is obviously a service delivery problem. In my case, and with a certain jocular elfism, I probed Ben's use of Be - especially as its operation and terms are superior to what VM in fact deliver. Probed elsewhere too.

For "I", below, read all those in what will be converted to a class action...

But what do I want? The service I paid very high rates for. I do not want a service never higher (during times of normally expected use) than someone who is paying for the low or medium bandwidth service (which VM engineers confirmed at my premises). At times I receive substantially less service delivery than paid for I want a rebate because I have overpaid, mostly because of what amounts to deception by VM. And if I succeed in the court action, I want VM to abide by the court orders - to provide the service contracted, the side effect of which is no capping without clear accounting and reason for why they are doing so. If they cannot deliver line speed in the area, and that means they can only ever offer something not beyond a middle or low package level, then that's what I should pay and it gives me the opportunity to get better elsewhere - along with about 200 people in the area who will follow.

What does that mean in layman terms? [The following are taken from recent direct research and direct research done between 2007 and 2008. It contains the pursuits of others, not only me]

I want to know that I can play PartyPoker and other games for two hours in the evening without the tiny packets of data taking 30 seconds to get through or even dropping the connection completely (especially when I have the best hand and there's money on the table). I want to be able to get my web developer forum messages, and respond to them, without it taking an age to load each one. I want to be able to read research materials (av. 2-10MB PDFs) from the ATHENS research repository for my own works and when helping postgraduate students. If I wanted to, I would like to be able to access BBC News online with some degree of clarity (I get a faster service when in China - and that's where the government blocks access to BBC). I want to be able to watch online webcasts of technical seminars. I want to upload developed pages to website hosts. I want my emails (VM decided to delete all mine, including some important ones). There's more, lots more. These are ALL low usage items. All these were compared with BT and Sky basic services, which beat VM for speed not just in my local area but other areas tested.

In summary upon what I want, I want a court order for repayment equivalent to the amounts of service not received and which was capable of delivery. I want a court order for VM to supply the services contractually agreed but without trickery, deception, excuse or obfuscation. I want a declaration that VM have operated and continue to operate an unfair policy.

In other words, I want what was contractually agreed. Frankly, I don't give a damn if VM have oversubscribed comparative to equipment capabilities, nor if the service drops at peak periods because of heavy traffic, or VMs excuses about contract: when it changed, what it is, how it operates, where they shoved it (I have some suggestions) - I want what I paid for. If that's impossible, then I want to pay for the service that is possible.

What I don't want is some unethical gremlin-like, self-righteous, excuse-making company to blatantly rob me of what I am due by standing sufficient staff on their cables so the poor little packets of data become exhausted trying to squeeze through the remaining tiny gap, reaching me in a pickled sweat. I want nice people within a nice supplier who doesn't cheat.

There you go Baron Graf

[LondonRoad]

Originally Posted by Mike_A

What I don't want is some unethical gremlin-looking, self-righteous, excuse-making company to blatantly rob me of what I am due by standing sufficient staff on their cables so the poor little packets of data become exhausted trying to squeeze through the remaining tiny gap, reaching me in a pickled sweat. .

I think from a technical perpective it doesn't work like that so you may want to exlude that description from your submissions.

gremlin looking ? MikeA you're losing it.

So was it a royal flush that kicked all this off?

[Mike_A]

Originally Posted by harmitage

I think from a technical perpective it doesn't work like that so you may want to exlude that description from your submissions.

gremlin looking ? MikeA you're losing it.

So was it a royal flush that kicked all this off?

1) Depends on the judge

2) You've seen Gremlins the movie, yes? You've seen Sir Richard on television, yes?

3) More like the change of life.

Thanks for the laugh...

[AbyssUnderground]

Originally Posted by lymmranger

As stated earlier I think it is time that EVERY ISP was forced to CLEARLY state what you can and cant do and how much it will cost

I fully agree.

VM state "xxMbps unlimited" when in fact its only unlimited at that speed until STM kicks in then its 75% less! That in itself, as I keep saying in other posts, is blatant lying and deception and should not be allowed.

If they advertised it as, for example 5Mbps with 20Mbps burst, that would be fine, no arguments! But they advertise 20Mbps unlimited, which it is not.

[Mike_A]

There is so much disharmony over this issue I have informed the BBC Watchdog program and understand the Office of Fair Trading will watch this debate unfold.

Accordingly, if people have direct experiences (or particular knowledge) they could help many others by posting relevant information for these two bodies to see.

[Fatec]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

A link to the Traffic Managment policy is on the Sales Website under the 'Need to Know' section. AFAIK there is also a link at the end when you place the order online

There is also a link at www.virginmedia.com/customers

Funnily, STM does not mentioned when you get their letters offering unlimited broadband, just says 'fair usage policy' oops STM isnt mentioned in there either, unless you know your looking for STM pages then you wont really find it, sorry but STM is NOT mentioned on ANY pages when your signing up, it's not in their FUP, no one tells you and you dont find out until your already capped.

In addition, all agents when selling/upgrading/downgrading broadband have to tell customers as part of the Broadband Honesty Statement as per the OFCOM code of practice

Have to? funny, i've not come across anyone that does, infact, none of the agents who knock on our doors mention STM here, they blatantly deny that they use it.

And as for their 5% figure, it's well known it means a different 5% at any given time, so it affects their whole user database and this does bring into question their '20Mbit unlimited' ads.

[jamiefrost]

Originally Posted by Mike_A

What does that mean in layman terms? [The following are taken from recent direct research and direct research done between 2007 and 2008. It contains the pursuits of others, not only me]

I want to know that I can play PartyPoker and other games for two hours in the evening without the tiny packets of data taking 30 seconds to get through or even dropping the connection completely (especially when I have the best hand and there's money on the table). I want to be able to get my web developer forum messages, and respond to them, without it taking an age to load each one. I want to be able to read research materials (av. 2-10MB PDFs) from the ATHENS research repository for my own works and when helping postgraduate students. If I wanted to, I would like to be able to access BBC News online with some degree of clarity (I get a faster service when in China - and that's where the government blocks access to BBC). I want to be able to watch online webcasts of technical seminars. I want to upload developed pages to website hosts. I want my emails (VM decided to delete all mine, including some important ones). There's more, lots more. These are ALL low usage items. All these were compared with BT and Sky basic services, which beat VM for speed not just in my local area but other areas tested.

As far as I see (others may correct me) non of those issues have anything to do with STM. STM doesn't involve packet loss and the inability to connect to websites. Other technical issues cause these problems

Do virgin provide any guarantees with regards to web email? Honestly I wouldnt trust any web based email service for important emails.

I agree every IPS should provide details of this sort. I know what Virgin will do to my account and I am prepared to accept it.

Does this mean all ISP should charge on a pro-rata basis upon the actual speed achieved. It's a hard business model to get working and would probably result in increase in costs for most people to subsidies everyone who does not get the average speed.

The only way to get a 'guaranteed' speed is to get a 1:1 leased line. Which not many people will be able to afford.

[Bonglet]

If the only way to get the speed is through a leased line that means that vm are indeed mis-selling the product does it not?.

You dont advertise an unlimited 20mb connection when you cannot provide it or any other tier.

All vm have to do is aggregate the figures find out what everyone CAN achive and then sell that product at that constant non detremental speed not say this is XXmb but you wont see much of it.

[jamiefrost]

No ISP provides a contention ratio of 1:1 for home broadband no business model would support it and it's not needed.

Loading web pages and looking at emails does not required a 1:1 line, with general web browsing your connection is idile most of the time. Once you loaded the page thats it.

JJ