Legal action taken against Virgin Media throttling practices - Page 11

Gary L · 12-03-2009, 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMcr

The STM is published on a website, because it applied to an internet service!!

It's the judge you've got to convince that that sentence makes sense, and is also legal. not me.
He'll want to know why it's not in the post and only on the website when it's something that affects the customers connection.

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Any changes to prices or to core Terms and Conditions ARE sent out in writing and not just published on the website!

I'll have to blame the postman then. like everyone else.

BenMcr · 12-03-2009, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

It's the judge you've got to convince that that sentence makes sense, and is also legal. not me.
He'll want to know why it's not in the post and only on the website when it's something that affects the customers connection.

I'm with be broadband and I have had nothing in the post from them - apart from the router.

All Terms and Conditions, contracts and invoices have been delivered online

Same for the Dell PC I bought. I didn't get confirmation of my order in writing until I took delivery of the PC itself

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I'll have to blame the postman then. like everyone else.

And if it came to it Virgin would be able to prove any variation of the T&Cs were sent to you in writing

beeman · 12-03-2009, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Virgin Terms and Conditions haven't changed since Feb 2007 - and those terms they sent out to all customer in writing in the normal post as part of the 'Welcome to Virgin Media' pack

The STM is published on a website, because it applied to an internet service!!

Any changes to prices or to core Terms and Conditions ARE sent out in writing and not just published on the website!

i have NEVER ONCE recieved ANY terms from VM or NTL. infact the ONLY terms ive ever received was from cambridge cable. My last contact was in september 07 when i upgraded to the VIP package. The only thing ive ever signed is the occational insterlation conformation (ie confirming the insterlation was complete, and had nothing about the terms of service on it).

BenMcr · 12-03-2009, 18:56

As I said all customers were sent a welcome pack in January 2007. The terms have not been altered since then

beeman · 12-03-2009, 19:00

i never recieved such a pack. infact it was in febuary 07 that i got my v+ (then called TVDrive) and all the info i got then (the install confirmation) was still in NTL name.

the ONLY thing close to what your saying i received was a single page letter informing me that the name on the direct debit is changing and i "dont have to do anything"...

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And if it came to it Virgin would be able to prove any variation of the T&Cs were sent to you in writing

Proof of postage is NOT proof of delevery

Gary L · 12-03-2009, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMcr

I'm with be broadband and I have had nothing in the post from them - apart from the router.

All Terms and Conditions, contracts and invoices have been delivered online

I'm with Be too. and any changes to the terms and conditions are sent to me by email.

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Same for the Dell PC I bought. I didn't get confirmation of my order in writing until I took delivery of the PC itself

Not even to the email you may have given them?

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And if it came to it Virgin would be able to prove any variation of the T&Cs were sent to you in writing

Apart from lying. how would they manage that trick?

broadbandking · 12-03-2009, 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by beeman

i never recieved such a pack. infact it was in febuary 07 that i got my v+ (then called TVDrive) and all the info i got then (the install confirmation) was still in NTL name.

the ONLY thing close to what your saying i received was a single page letter informing me that the name on the direct debit is changing and i "dont have to do anything"...

Proof of postage is NOT proof of delevery

But once posted its out Virgin hands so there for not Virgin's problem.

Milambar · 12-03-2009, 20:06

None the less, I believe that the UK legal system requires proof of delivery, not proof of postage. Thats why we're advised to send legal documents by recorded delivery. Virgin is not exempt from this.

Think about it. If I was to send you a summons to a civil suit, and because of a post hiccup, you never recieved it, and proof of posting was acceptable, then I could secure a default judgment without you ever having a chance to defend yourself, because you never knew it was happening. Therefore, legal documents have to be sent with proof of delivery. Thats recorded delivery.

Proof of postage is not proof of delivery.

BenMcr · 12-03-2009, 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

I'm with Be too. and any changes to the terms and conditions are sent to me by email.

I know, but that is online - which you say isn't legal, not in writing through the post

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Not even to the email you may have given them?

Still online

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Apart from lying. how would they manage that trick?

Well, exactly how Virgin sent it I'm not sure, but when I've worked for companies in the past and had to send mailshots out there would be the letter itself, a list of the people it was sent to, and when it was sent.

If this contained legal information - such as a change to the terms and conditions, then I'm sure it would need to be retained, to prove that reasonable efforts were made to contact all customers in regards to the change

Mike_A · 12-03-2009, 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Any changes to prices or to core Terms and Conditions ARE sent out in writing and not just published on the website!

That, sir, is patently untrue. I have a full file of all correspondence since 2003 from, first, Telewest, and then Virgin Media once they took over. I have not received a single written notice of change to terms and conditions.

BenMcr · 12-03-2009, 20:26

Then for whatever reason you did not recieve one. I saw the welcome packs that were sent, and enough people complained recieving 'stuff from a company called Virgin Media when I'm with ntl/telewest' that I know they were sent

Mike_A · 12-03-2009, 20:37

Quote:

Any changes to prices or to core Terms and Conditions ARE sent out in writing and not just published on the website!

and...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMcr

I know, but that is online - which you say isn't legal, not in writing through the post

Well, exactly how Virgin sent it I'm not sure, but when I've worked for companies in the past and had to send mailshots out there would be the letter itself, a list of the people it was sent to, and when it was sent.

There's high degree of inconsistency there Ben, given the confirmatory "ARE" on your post in the last thread page.

I had until now taken on board what you wrote. Indeed, I followed up various matters with people in the industry and learned litigation practitioners, as well as referencing my personal library of legal references. It's okay, and welcome, to place conjecture forward in a debate if it's qualified as such.

Are all Virgin Media staff brainwashed into a VM gratifying state of mind? I don't like the lack of diplomacy in having to say it, but it appears that much of your post feedback is unfounded. If VM follow that stance as a matter of course then they are, in many directions, on shaky ground.

As a matter of interest, I note by your name you are with Sky/Be. As a Virgin Media group employee, why not with VM?

Gary L · 12-03-2009, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMcr

I know, but that is online - which you say isn't legal, not in writing through the post

I'm not saying it's illegal to put them online. I'm saying it could be illegal that Virgin don't and haven't informed people of changes to the T&Cs. they just change them but don't tell you that the 30 days is now started.

With Be you are told that you will be notified of any changes by email. and are.
Virgin say that you will be notified. but they don't notify you. they just change them and expect you to go and have a look every now and then. just incase you might not like them and to make sure the 30 day clock hasn't started without you being told it has.

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Well, exactly how Virgin sent it I'm not sure, but when I've worked for companies in the past and had to send mailshots out there would be the letter itself, a list of the people it was sent to, and when it was sent.

If this contained legal information - such as a change to the terms and conditions, then I'm sure it would need to be retained, to prove that reasonable efforts were made to contact all customers in regards to the change

Can anyone say they have a letter or any correspondence from Virgin stating that the T&Cs have been changed. STM has been introduced. changes to the STM policy have been made?

No.

BenMcr · 12-03-2009, 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_A

and...

There's high degree of inconsistency there Ben, given the confirmatory "ARE" on your post in the last thread page.

No there isn't.

If Virgin decide to change the Terms and Conditions - which are detailed here - www.virginmedia.com/legal - then all customers will be informed in writing - just as they are when they changed them last time - in February 2007.

I also know that when Virgin wrote to XL customers explaining about the price changes in May 2007, based on copies of the letter that have been posted online in the past - there was also a mention that there would be an introduction of traffic managment and a link to the site where the full policy was detailed.

I would expect it would have also been included in the other price change letters sent to other customers at the same time - but I can't verify at this stage if they were

But has already been posted multiple times - the introduction of STM is covered by an existing clause in the Terms and Conditions - that existed before STM was introduced

Quote:

I had until now taken on board what you wrote. Indeed, I followed up various matters with people in the industry and learned litigation practitioners, as well as referencing my personal library of legal references. It's okay, and welcome, to place conjecture forward in a debate if it's qualified as such.

And what point are you trying to make there?

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Are all Virgin Media staff brainwashed into a VM gratifying state of mind? I don't like the lack of diplomacy in having to say it, but it appears that much of your post feedback is unfounded. If VM follow that stance as a matter of course then they are, in many directions, on shaky ground.

You are stating your own personal view on a forum that is neither a legal forum or in anyway connected to Virgin Media

I am doing exactly the same. I have also already said that my posts are my own personal view

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As a matter of interest, I note by your name you are with Sky/Be. As a Virgin Media group employee, why not with VM?

That is none of your business and also irrelevant.

broadbandking · 12-03-2009, 21:20

Thats a bit snotty Ben, Mike the only reason I can see why Ben is not with VM is because he doesnt live in a cable area.