Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[Frank]

Originally Posted by ntluser

The shelling of UN compounds is unfortunate, which is presumably why aid agencies are staying out of the region. However, in a war zone it is possible for agency staff to be killed by either side so it is understandable that they do not want to put their lives at risk.

Unfortunate? That's an interesting way of putting it. Burning humanitarian supplies and people in a refugee camp with White Phosphorus is indeed unfortunate.

Originally Posted by ntluser

Israel could withdraw tomorrow but Hamas would still keep firing rockets as there has been no statement from them saying the rocket bombardment would stop, so Hamas do not seem to believe in exercising restraint either.

Firstly, Isreal broke the ceasefire in the beginning - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

Secondly, Hamas wants a ceasefire - http://news.antiwar.com/2009/01/14/h...-in-principle/

Israel is now bombing UN refugee camps, buildings used by journalists/reuters (information war) and 2nd largest hospital in Gaza with 500 people inside.

I don't think "restraint" and "Israel" really go in the same sentance, do you?

Originally Posted by ntluser

Israel are pounding the Palestinians as an example to others in the region to let them know what they can expect if they try to take offensive action.

Israel is massacaring civilians, and has killed over 1000 people, over 2/3 of them are women and children. Using white phosphorus on a densely populated area like Gaza is probably a war crime. They are breach of the UN ceasefire resolution, not to mention they have more UN Security Council resolutions against them than any other country. That's with the U.S. Veto. Sounds like "restraint" to me.

Originally Posted by ntluser

I expect and agree that by the time Obama gets into power this skirmish will probably be over. However, the unwillingness of Hamas to stop firing rockets will only serve to convince him that Israel needs US help more than ever.

I doubt that very much. Defence Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni both want a ceasefire - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055473.html

Olmert embarrassed the Americans by claiming to control U.S foreign policy by forcing Condi to abstain from the last resolution. Obama has spoken out agains the aggression. If it's still ongoing when he gets in, you can be sure he will condemn it and hopefully act quickly. His foreign policy advisor Zbig is also feared by the Zionists. Economic sanctions would be the best option in my opinion.

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by se917

If you were the leader of Hamas and your land was being blockaded by Israel what would you do?

Israel does not want to lift the blockade for a ceasefire, Hamas has said they will have a ceasefire which includes them stop firing rockets, the blockade lifted and Israel leaves Gaza but Israel has refused this.

If Gaza is blockaded where are the weapons coming from? As far as I can see they are coming from tunnels connecting Gaza with Egypt.

Why should Israel lift the blockade when it is clear that the main purpose of having the blockade lifted is to import more weapons?

If I was the Hamas leader I would put my prejudices and hatred to one side and be using the tunnels to bring in much needed aid and resources for my people and doing as much as possible to build up trust and a better relationship with Israel. Instead of importing weapons Hamas could have been building a prosperous state.

As things stand, taking this military action against Israel has resulted in massive loss of life and massive damage to the Gaza infrastructure. Palestinians are now a lot worse off than they were before.

If Hamas feels that they have a valid case they should take it to a international tribunal and try to resolve it peacefully and without bitterness. Not only does this save lives and avoid damage, it demonstrates that you are going for a legal or diplomatic solution to the problem not a military one.

After all, no-one, Palestinian or Israeli, likes to feel threatened.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by ntluser

If Gaza is blockaded where are the weapons coming from? As far as I can see they are coming from tunnels connecting Gaza with Egypt.

Why should Israel lift the blockade when it is clear that the main purpose of having the blockade lifted is to import more weapons?

If I was the Hamas leader I would put my prejudices and hatred to one side and be using the tunnels to bring in much needed aid and resources for my people and doing as much as possible to build up trust and a better relationship with Israel. Instead of importing weapons Hamas could have been building a prosperous state.

As things stand, taking this military action against Israel has resulted in massive loss of life and massive damage to the Gaza infrastructure. Palestinians are now a lot worse off than they were before.

If Hamas feels that they have a valid case they should take it to a international tribunal and try to resolve it peacefully and without bitterness. Not only does this save lives and avoid damage, it demonstrates that you are going for a legal or diplomatic solution to the problem not a military one.

After all, no-one, Palestinian or Israeli, likes to feel threatened.

Errmmm... how many UN resolutions is Israel in breach of again?....

Perhaps Israel could try discriminating better, in it's blockade, between rockets/arms and food/medical supplies. That might win them a few friends and even change a few minds....

And what about all those innocent people who have no time for Hamas at all but are suffering because of Israel's patent lack of restraint and indiscriminate tactics? For every Hamas operative they've killed dozens have probably been created amongst the families who've been murdered so where is this going to end for Israel

[soicky]

Why should Israel lift the blockade when it is clear that the main purpose of having the blockade lifted is to import more weapons?

So blockading Gaza has prevented rockets being fired into Israel?

If I was the Hamas leader I would put my prejudices and hatred to one side and be using the tunnels to bring in much needed aid and resources for my people and doing as much as possible to build up trust and a better relationship with Israel. Instead of importing weapons Hamas could have been building a prosperous state.

Hamas does not just bring in weapons, they bring in vital food and aid supplies through these tunnels which Israel does to a bare minimum through the crossings.

Palestinians are now a lot worse off than they were before.

This is due to Israel, i do not know how they can say Hamas are bombing and killing the Palestinians when they clearly are not. Israel is directly hitting Palestinians.

If Hamas feels that they have a valid case they should take it to a international tribunal and try to resolve it peacefully and without bitterness.

I think we all know this will achieve nothing, Israel does not care what the international community thinks about it. This is clearly shown by the amount of UN resolutions Israel in in breach of.


One day they will pay the price for their inhumane actions.

[ntluser]

I think to some extent we are going over old ground.

For the last 60 years, both Israel and the Palestinians have been guilty of some atrocious acts.

They have both employed the same methods and have been responsible for the killing or maiming of thousands of men, women and children so neither side is innocent here.

As long as the fighting goes on more people will die so the first priority has to be a ceasefire.

Neither side is paying attention to the International Community, despite the fact that the conflict has been condemned and there have been many pleas for a ceasefire.

The scale of deaths is horrendous but no other country will place troops or personnel in Gaza unless there is a ceasefire.

The situation will not be resolved unless there is a ceasefire.

Maybe, it will continue until Obama is active as President. Will he persuade Israel to stop? And how will he do it? If he stops supporting Israel, will the Palestinians still continue to attack?

There still seems to be a revenge element to our discussions. No-one is looking for a peaceful solution or a legal solution to the problem. Are we talking about Israel being accused of war crimes in an International court or are we talking about the wholesale massacre of Israelis? If the latter, then that's no better than the wholesale massacre of Palestinians.

Given too that there does not appear to be any faith in the International community, where do we go from here? Economic sanctions take time to work.The death toll in Gaza could be well into the thousands by then.

The only country capable of influencing Israel is probably the USA. If Israel remains uninfluenced what would you expect the USA to do? Suppose the only solution was a military one. Would the Palestinians really want an American peacekeeping force in Gaza to keep out the Israelis? Though such a force would offer protection and possibly support to rebuild Gaza, they would also prevent Palestinians from arming.

On the other hand, would the Americans really want to enter another theatre of war while they have troops in Afghanistan and Iraq? Maybe they will opt as you suggest for the sanctions and diplomatic moves until the fighting stops, which may be some time.

Once the fighting stops, the question to ask is what happens next? How will the Palestinian-Israeli matter be resolved?

This blame football is wonderful isn't it either side kicking it to the other when it suits them. Both groups have an equal share of responsibility for what has happened and trying to blame one side more then the other is hardly a good start to any diplomatic process is it. How stupid do you have to be to fire rockets at a superior military opponent and then to keep it up after they have taken offensive action.

Hamas are doing it hoping to expand this conflict into a wider conflict trying to get their so called arab friends to jump in as well. Israel at some point has a lot of questions to answer and personally until such time as they are prepared to act in accordance with international law they should be expelled from the UN. Also the US needs to stop protecting Israel from international responsibility for it's actions. This is not a simple situatio that has a simple solution it will take many years and being honest a change in the leadership of both sides before we can even begin diplomacy.

There is never going to be a solution while either side has a grip on the past and won't let that go. That is not to say the past isn't important but no forward progress can be made till both sides are prepared to forgive past conflicts and are prepared to compromise for the good of all their people.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

This blame football is wonderful isn't it either side kicking it to the other when it suits them. Both groups have an equal share of responsibility for what has happened and trying to blame one side more then the other is hardly a good start to any diplomatic process is it. How stupid do you have to be to fire rockets at a superior military opponent and then to keep it up after they have taken offensive action.

Hamas are doing it hoping to expand this conflict into a wider conflict trying to get their so called arab friends to jump in as well. Israel at some point has a lot of questions to answer and personally until such time as they are prepared to act in accordance with international law they should be expelled from the UN. Also the US needs to stop protecting Israel from international responsibility for it's actions. This is not a simple situatio that has a simple solution it will take many years and being honest a change in the leadership of both sides before we can even begin diplomacy.

There is never going to be a solution while either side has a grip on the past and won't let that go. That is not to say the past isn't important but no forward progress can be made till both sides are prepared to forgive past conflicts and are prepared to compromise for the good of all their people.

Totally agree.

SE917, You asked: "If you were the leader of Hamas and your land was being blockaded by Israel what would you do"?

I would like to answer that question if I may. As leader, I would look at the number of my fellow citizens, who are dying, for my beliefs. The children have no politics, & no preference as to who governs their land. They just want to live.

I would assess my position & call an immediate halt to all hostilities. My organisation is in turmoil, & to continue with this campaign will only result in more civilian casualties. I would sue for peace. I would use the ballot box to encourage a regime change, & seek to live in peace with my neighbours.

Instead, we see Hamas, continuing to put its fellow citizens in harms way, it is trying to alienate Israel from the rest of the ME. This conflict has sod all to do with the Gaza strip, its more to do with an organisation who prefers the terror option, to the political one.

That said, I also think Israel has used excessive force in the area. It is killing more Civillians than is acceptable. (Dont come back at me for the use of the term acceptable, take it as read). The use of certain weapons in a built up area is designed for use against military targets only. I initially expected ground troops & Armour, I did not expect them to use this amount of force.

Hamas is using this as a propaganda & media weapon, & Israel is falling right into the trap. The time has come for this conflict, to halt.

[Osem]

There are plenty of innocent people in Gaza who have no time for Hamas but are still being bombed and killed. What are they supposed to do about it? On the other hand, Hamas are probably delighted at the burgeoning support they will undoubtedly have as a result of all this and if that takes sacrificing some of their own to that end they probably couldn't care less.

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Osem

There are plenty of innocent people in Gaza who have no time for Hamas but are still being bombed and killed. What are they supposed to do about it? On the other hand, Hamas are probably delighted at the burgeoning support they will undoubtedly have as a result of all this and if that takes sacrificing some of their own to that end they probably couldn't care less.

Sadly, the death of innocent people is an inevitable consequence of war. In probably every war that's occured innocent people have been killed. The safest place is off the battlefield probably near the Egyptian border but away from the tunnels and other strategic targets.

If Hamas gets support it won't be in Gaza. Hamas has used its fellow Palestinians as human shields. At some time,there will be elections again in Gaza. If the Palestinians want peace they won't elect Hamas. If they want revenge and are prepared to accept the consequences they will continue to elect Hamas but I think it is unlikely as they will be too busy burying their dead and repairing the damage from this conflict.

Hamas already has support outside Gaza, from Egypt for one so nothing has really changed, unless we find tunnels leading elsewhere. Israel on the hand are likely to tighten security in Gaza particularly with regard to militants.

The fighting still continues; more innocent people continue to die;diplomatic talks regarding a ceasefire plod on so at present we are no nearer to a peace.

The Palestinians and Israelis really need to look to the future and need to find a way to bring about a sustainable peace.Without it the two nations will destroy themselves killing many innocent people in the process.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by SMG

I would assess my position & call an immediate halt to all hostilities.

There was a ceasefire. Israel did not adhere to the terms, specifically to open the border to allow humanitarian aid in so Gaza was no longer like a concentration camp. Israel also broke the ceasefire.

Originally Posted by SMG

My organisation is in turmoil, & to continue with this campaign will only result in more civilian casualties. I would sue for peace. I would use the ballot box to encourage a regime change, & seek to live in peace with my neighbours.

Regime change? They already had a democratic election, and Hamas was elected. Hamas "militants" are the army of the democratically elected government. Hamas police are the police force of the democratially elected government. The only regime that needs changing is the unelected, puppet "government" of Abbas and Fatah, who stand idly by while Israel expands settlements in the West Bank in violation of more UN Resolutions.

Originally Posted by SMG

Instead, we see Hamas, continuing to put its fellow citizens in harms way, it is trying to alienate Israel from the rest of the ME.

Well that assumes that Hamas broke the ceasefire, which they did not. Perhaps you can explain to me how Hamas is putting their citizens in harms way when the borders of Gaza, a DENSELY populated area, are sealed and the people have nowhere to go and it is Israel that is killing people. Over 1100 of them now.

Originally Posted by SMG

This conflict has sod all to do with the Gaza strip, its more to do with an organisation who prefers the terror option, to the political one.

You could not be more wrong and could not be more brainwashed. Hamas is a terrorist group because...the western media says so? It's pretty clear to me who is causing the most terror right now - a disproportionate amount of force (the terror option) in violation of multiple international laws and UN resolutions (the political option).

I would suggest to you that this conflict is more about crushing democratically elected Hamas because they are not sympathetic to the US/UK/Israel empire-building strategy that is currently being executed in the middle east (Afganistan, Iraq, even Kuwait). Once Hamas is crushed, Fatah will conveniently take power, and of course they are sympathetic to U.S interests.

Perhaps you might be persuaded to think outside the mainstream media message box for 5 mins: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=7928

Originally Posted by SMG

That said, I also think Israel has used excessive force in the area. It is killing more Civillians than is acceptable. (Dont come back at me for the use of the term acceptable, take it as read).

How many civilians do you think it is acceptable to kill to gain geopolitical power?

Originally Posted by SMG

The use of certain weapons in a built up area is designed for use against military targets only. I initially expected ground troops & Armour, I did not expect them to use this amount of force.

You do have a short memory. Lebanon was flattened.

Originally Posted by SMG

Hamas is using this as a propaganda & media weapon, & Israel is falling right into the trap.

Erm no. Hamas is using the deaths of Palestinians as propoganda? You seem to have everything back to front. It is Israel that is engaging in an information war, shelling the buildings of journalists already in the Gaza strip, lying about the use of white phosporus, and censoring any other journalists by blocking their entrance. Egypt, of course, sadly is participating. Hell, the Israeli consulate in New York even launched a PR campaign on Twitter to spread more propaganda. Perhaps its time for you to broaden the scope of outlets that you get information from.

Originally Posted by SMG

The time has come for this conflict, to halt.

Geez, glad we agree on something.

Originally Posted by Frank

Regime change? They already had a democratic election, and Hamas was elected. Hamas "militants" are the army of the democratically elected government. Hamas police are the police force of the democratially elected government. The only regime that needs changing is the unelected, puppet "government" of Abbas and Fatah, who stand idly by while Israel expands settlements in the West Bank in violation of more UN Resolutions.

A point of information if I may - Hamas won elections, but they were legislative elections, not presidential ones. So, they were not, and are not, a legitimate government in Gaza or anywhere else. They won the right to hold the government to account, and to pass laws, but they do not have the right to run the army or the police. And they certainly didn't have the right to take control, by force, from those that did have the right to run them, namely Fatah.

The legitimate government of Gaza is holed up in the West Bank, under the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas. Like him or loathe him, he's the man.

[frogstamper]

Originally Posted by Frank

Regime change? They already had a democratic election, and Hamas was elected. Hamas "militants" are the army of the democratically elected government. Hamas police are the police force of the democratially elected government. The only regime that needs changing is the unelected, puppet "government" of Abbas and Fatah, who stand idly by while Israel expands settlements in the West Bank in violation of more UN Resolutions.

Strange thing though that after Hamas were elected one of the first acts they carried out was the murder of their Fatah opponents.
Also just because they were elected doesn't carry some guarantee that other democracies have to talk to them, why should anyone deal with an organization that calls for the death of all Jews anywhere in the world.



"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

This one in particular sums up Hamas.



Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

These statements are all from the Hamas Charter, why should any right minded person deal with such nihilistic views, democratically elected or not.

[Maribel]

Originally Posted by Chris

A point of information if I may - Hamas won elections, but they were legislative elections, not presidential ones. So, they were not, and are not, a legitimate government in Gaza or anywhere else. They won the right to hold the government to account, and to pass laws, but they do not have the right to run the army or the police. And they certainly didn't have the right to take control, by force, from those that did have the right to run them, namely Fatah.

The legitimate government of Gaza is holed up in the West Bank, under the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas. Like him or loathe him, he's the man.

Rubbish, Hamas won the election, get over it! I ain't Muslim, I ain't a Hamas supporter but Hamas is the legitimate government. And don't forget our Sauerkraut Liz ain't elected here either.

Originally Posted by Maribel

Rubbish, Hamas won the election, get over it! I ain't Muslim, I ain't a Hamas supporter but Hamas is the legitimate government. And don't forget our Sauerkraut Liz ain't elected here either.

Nice to see a reasonable rebuttal on the forum.....

btw, SK's first British-born ancestor was born in this country in 1738 (George III), so I am fairly sure (imho) she can be counted as British; and I didn't realise Hamas were going to use the "unelected monarchy" excuse as a reason for ruling....

Originally Posted by Maribel

Rubbish, Hamas won the election, get over it! I ain't Muslim, I ain't a Hamas supporter but Hamas is the legitimate government. And don't forget our Sauerkraut Liz ain't elected here either.

OK. Well, for starters I don't recall saying that Hamas didn't win the election. But seeing as you weren't able to understand that rudimentary point, I'm not going to ask you to stretch your brain cell to the extent that would be required for you to grasp the difference between an executive and a legislature.

Funny, though, how you can be so basically ignorant of how our own system works, yet you're mad keen to weigh in like an armchair expert on the Middle East.