50Mbit Service Upstream Discussion

[Ignitionnet]

An option for extra upstream for extra cash in the same manner Comhem have would rock.

[General Maximus]

yup, they can do it in bolt ons like sms for mobiles, like an extra 1mbit up for £5 or something. If i am honest i would prefer to pay £50 a month for 30/5 rather than 50/1.75.

As for what broadbandking said, i have only ever wanted more upload speed for seeding torrents because the faster we upload the quicker it gets done and then we can move onto other things. With HD encodings becoming increasingly popular the file sizes have shot up which means even more time uploading.

[azraelomega]

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

I think we may have an explanation for some issues, I really hope this is a fault. This from a 50Mbit modem:

Upstream
Channel Type 1.0 Channel ID 3
Frequency (Hz) 25808000
Ranging Status Success
Modulation QPSK
Symbol Rate (KSym/sec) 2560
Mini-Slot Size 2

4.4Mbit of usable bandwidth on an upstream that could, in theory, be catering for several 20 and 50Mbit customers. Is the network really in such bad shape that it can't handle a more strenuous upstream modulation, or at least a DOCSIS 2.0 ATDMA wider upstream?

I'm hoping this is an oversight, it's pretty concerning if the product is being released in places without the appropriate (or going by this any on the return path in this area) network work being done. Problem is this would explain why there's the wait for upstream bonding and even then it's only going to 2.5Mbit.

I will run with oversight for now I think. If that is the best that area of network can manage it's no business running the other tiers let alone 50Mbit.

Broadbandings,

You seem like a very knowledgeable guy as far as cable network infrastructure goes you commented on my post on the support groups. If I understand you correctly the QPSK modulation used on my (single chanel unbonded) return path is limited to 4.4mbit/sec so if like 4 people in my street are uploading thats this thing saturated?

If this is the case this sounds like mis-selling on virgins part as I get serious spikes when undertaking latency sensitive tasks (gaming+voice comms)

Can you give me any more detail which I can use for going back to Virgin I don't want to be tied into a service which is worse for playing games etc. I never had a single latency issue on my 20mbit connection.

Are you aware of any upstream modulation parameters from other areas in the country which have a more suitable upstream modulation for providing a solid upstream cabability?

Regards,

David

[General Maximus]

that is the problem, it is shocking when you look at it. There is another post somewhere he has made (cant remember what about) where he worked out one line or something was 37mbit and you multiplied that by 4 and each ubr was 158mbits or something like that and you think "omg, that is only 8 people on 20mbits on an entire ubr" (I have probably got all of this wrong) but their arguement is that they can get away with it because most ubrs are only at 70% peak load which means they have got more than enough bandwidth. They would only have a problem if everyone tried to use their connect at the same time which is obviously what happens a lot of the time and you get everyone moaning they are only receiving 1mbit on their 20mbit connection.

[*sloman*]

I agree and would pay

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by azraelomega

Broadbandings,

Hi,

Simple tests to see how things are running.

First try a nice traceroute or two to www.virginmedia.com

Then try a ping -n 100 www.virginmedia.com and see how that goes.

Also try the VM speedtest on your upstream and see how you score, go to http://www.vmpilot.net/ and use whichever one is nearest to you.

Should explain if the issue is with packet loss or saturation.

Other areas in the country use the 16QAM modulation upstream, which provides twice the bandwidth at 8.8Mbit. The standards go as far as a usable 27.2Mbit/s per upstream, some 6 times the performance of the upstream you appear to be connected to.

---------- Post added at 20:00 ---------- Previous post was at 19:57 ----------

Originally Posted by General Maximus

that is the problem, it is shocking when you look at it. There is another post somewhere he has made (cant remember what about) where he worked out one line or something was 37mbit and you multiplied that by 4 and each ubr was 158mbits or something like that and you think "omg, that is only 8 people on 20mbits on an entire ubr" (I have probably got all of this wrong) but their arguement is that they can get away with it because most ubrs are only at 70% peak load which means they have got more than enough bandwidth. They would only have a problem if everyone tried to use their connect at the same time which is obviously what happens a lot of the time and you get everyone moaning they are only receiving 1mbit on their 20mbit connection.

Each area has 1 or 2 38Mbit channels usually. For whatever reason while some areas of the network can run on 51Mbit channels they tend not to.

2 20Mbit customers in the same area, usually around 400 customers per 38Mbit, will saturate.

It's contention, and in most cases it works ok.

[AbyssUnderground]

Originally Posted by *sloman*

I agree and would pay

As would most, but will Virgin ever put our requests into products? I'm willing to bet "unlikely", wait scratch that, "very unlikely".

Does anyone on here have connections to get this escalated up to whoever is in charge of deciding these things? Some serious money can be made here, and some serious customers as well if they become the fastest upstream provider in the UK...

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by *sloman*

I agree and would pay

I would pay an additional £5 a month to take my upstream from 768kbps to 2.5Mbit and £10 to push it to 5Mbit.

[AbyssUnderground]

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

I would pay an additional £5 a month to take my upstream from 768kbps to 2.5Mbit and £10 to push it to 5Mbit.

Or reduce the download in exchange for upload. 2Mbps download per 0.5Mbps upload perhaps?

[Joxer]

The thing puzzling me is upstream utilisation does not appear to be an issue so bandwidth would appear to be available - I will have a look tomorrow and report back.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by AbyssUnderground

Or reduce the download in exchange for upload. 2Mbps download per 0.5Mbps upload perhaps?

Nah. Can't really make it all that flexible due to a few restrictions but I think an extra upstream tier per version, say M+ L+ XL+ XXL+ should be doable.

[azraelomega]

Hi again,

Carried out the tests as you suggested looks ok. But to give you an example of what I'm experiencing when it happens if I'm talking on ventrillo people hear what I said to them up to 20-30 seconds after I say it then its fine for a while then does the same.

Traceroutes

Tracing route to www.virginmedia.net [212.250.162.12]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 4 ms 5 ms 5 ms 10.17.236.1
2 6 ms 5 ms 5 ms osr01glen-ge19.network.virginmedia.net [81.97.49.5]
3 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms osr01edin-tenge72.network.virginmedia.net [62.30.251.45]
4 12 ms 11 ms 11 ms man-bb-a-ge-400-0.network.virginmedia.net [195.182.178.90]
5 25 ms 19 ms 17 ms gfd-bb-b-so-200-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.252.192.94]
6 19 ms 17 ms 18 ms win-bb-a-so-010-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.172.129]
7 19 ms 17 ms 17 ms win-dc-a-v900.network.virginmedia.net [62.253.188.162]
8 18 ms 18 ms 22 ms www.virginmedia.com [212.250.162.12]

Trace complete.

Tracing route to www.virginmedia.net [212.250.162.12]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 10.17.236.1
2 6 ms 5 ms 5 ms osr01glen-ge19.network.virginmedia.net 81.97.49.5]
3 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms osr01edin-tenge72.network.virginmedia.net [62.30.251.45]
4 12 ms 16 ms 10 ms man-bb-a-ge-400-0.network.virginmedia.net [195.182.178.90]
5 18 ms 17 ms 17 ms gfd-bb-b-so-200-0.network.virginmedia.net 62.252.192.94]
6 19 ms 17 ms 17 ms win-bb-a-so-010-0.network.virginmedia.net213.105.172.129]
7 19 ms 20 ms 19 ms win-dc-a-v900.network.virginmedia.net [62.253.188.162]
8 19 ms 19 ms 20 ms www.virginmedia.com [212.250.162.12]

Trace complete.

There was 1 previous trace where the ping times @ hop 2 were 150ms+ but this was likely a blip. (but blip is what my internet connection is experiencing when doing activities requiring low latency on the downstream and upstream paths.

Ping

Ping statistics for 212.250.162.12:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 17ms, Maximum = 32ms, Average = 20ms

Upload Tests

Upload #1
------------------------------------------------------------------
File size transferred : 10.0 MB (10485760 bytes)
Total time taken : 45.56 seconds (45562 milliseconds)
Throughput : 230.0 KB/sec [Kilobyte-per-second]
= 0.23 MB/sec [Megabyte-per-second]
= 1840.0 Kbps [Kilobit-per-second]
= 1.84 Mbps [Megabit-per-second]

Upload #2
------------------------------------------------------------------
File size transferred : 10.0 MB (10485760 bytes)
Total time taken : 45.42 seconds (45422 milliseconds)
Throughput : 230.0 KB/sec [Kilobyte-per-second]
= 0.23 MB/sec [Megabyte-per-second]
= 1840.0 Kbps [Kilobit-per-second]
= 1.84 Mbps [Megabit-per-second]

Just for fun 1 download test:

Download #1
------------------------------------------------------------------
File size transferred : 100.0 MB (104857600 bytes)
Total time taken : 18.5 seconds (18500 milliseconds)
Throughput : 5667.0 KB/sec [Kilobyte-per-second]
= 5.67 MB/sec [Megabyte-per-second]
= 45336.0 Kbps [Kilobit-per-second]
= 45.34 Mbps [Megabit-per-second]

This all looks fine but your comments on the newsgroups that the QAM16 applied on my return path could be very easily saturated. My area is quite high in terms of cable usage a lot a few people on my street are already on the 50mbit serivce with a few others getting it soon.

Regards,

David

[Ignitionnet]

Yer those all look absolutely fine.

It might be that very few in your street are on 50Mbit. No evidence there of saturation at all.

It was just a thought, however if the upstream is so narrow your blips could be caused by a burst of load, or even a burst of loss. Those first hop pings are great.

Very hard to detect unfortunately.

[General Maximus]

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

I think an extra upstream tier per version, say M+ L+ XL+ XXL+ should be doable.

Genious idea. Have you got any old colleagues in a position of influence you could suggest it to?

[Ignitionnet]

Here's a nice little quote from Barack Obama's infrastructure investment program relating to investment in broadband:

the NTIA portion of the money is tied to benchmarks that define 45Mbps/5Mbps as "advanced broadband," while 5Mbps/1Mbps service is defined as "basic broadband."

So of the VM residential portfolio only one product, 50M, even qualifies as 'basic broadband' and there are no 'advanced broadband' products with mass availability in the UK.

Ouch.