Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by i-Set

http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/19027

I recommend all to read the above link, for those who do not know the history of the area prior to this genocide by the Zionist movement on innocent children.

It's pointless posting links about Israelis killing children because the Palestinians do exactly the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childre...inian_conflict

This is a dispute that only the Israelis & Palestinians can sort out for themselves because as things stand they don't appear willing to let anyone intervene.

The only way for the killing of children to be avoided is to get them off the battlefield.

Originally Posted by i-Set

http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/19027

I recommend all to read the above link, for those who do not know the history of the area prior to this genocide by the Zionist movement on innocent children.

So we can expected a balanced view from
a) David Icke
b) a recommendation from someone using the terms "genocide" and "Zionist movement", not forgetting "innocent children" (never actually seen the term "guilty children" used in conjuction with this topic).

This is the sort of language and emotion (imho) which keeps the conflict fueled.

Originally Posted by i-Set

http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/19027

I recommend all to read the above link, for those who do not know the history of the area prior to this genocide by the Zionist movement on innocent children.

You're great value, I'll give you that.

What because I used the terms Zionist, my views are going to be imbalanced, is that what your saying? Oh please, wake up and smell the cocoa. Zionist is a term used by many and even the Jews know regarding this movement. I mean before world war two, was there or was there not a state of Israel? There wasnt, It was Palestine, who were betrayed into thinking the British government would give them control of their land, if they fought the Ottomon Turks, but they were betrayed.

Facts, simple, why do many of you here fail to see the root of the problems, and please do not say well its very well talkin about the past, but its upto Israel and Palestine to sort their problems out. You really think many arabs are going to watch their land, their homes in which they grew up, to be taken away by Israel and see no hope of return, while Israel sees it as unoccupied and bulldoze it down. Day by day, Israeli settlements grow and grow, which the UN deems as illegal but yet the US have no problems with this matter, if it was the other way round, it would be send the troops to get those bloody arabs out. Wouldnt it lol

Israel talks about taking out Iran due to their nuclear ambitions, which may be genuine, but yet they have a nuclear arsenal and are one of the most militarised nations on earth funded by US of course.

My points above may not be valid to this conflict, however what Im trying to say is this situation is going to be nothing compared to the anger which Israel will face from the new generation of Palestinians who on a day-to-day basis continue to be oppressed.

Ive said it before and ill say it again, Israel is the root of problems in the Middle East as of today. Many of you fail to see Israel did not exist and it exists today on Palestinian land...not rocket science is it, even though other Arab nations do not say this, but they will never be content with Israel amongst them.

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by i-Set

What because I used the terms Zionist, my views are going to be imbalanced, is that what your saying? Oh please, wake up and smell the cocoa. Zionist is a term used by many and even the Jews know regarding this movement. I mean before world war two, was there or was there not a state of Israel? There wasnt, It was Palestine, who were betrayed into thinking the British government would give them control of their land, if they fought the Ottomon Turks, but they were betrayed.

Facts, simple, why do many of you here fail to see the root of the problems, and please do not say well its very well talkin about the past, but its upto Israel and Palestine to sort their problems out. You really think many arabs are going to watch their land, their homes in which they grew up, to be taken away by Israel and see no hope of return, while Israel sees it as unoccupied and bulldoze it down. Day by day, Israeli settlements grow and grow, which the UN deems as illegal but yet the US have no problems with this matter, if it was the other way round, it would be send the troops to get those bloody arabs out. Wouldnt it lol

Israel talks about taking out Iran due to their nuclear ambitions, which may be genuine, but yet they have a nuclear arsenal and are one of the most militarised nations on earth funded by US of course.

My points above may not be valid to this conflict, however what Im trying to say is this situation is going to be nothing compared to the anger which Israel will face from the new generation of Palestinians who on a day-to-day basis continue to be oppressed.

Ive said it before and ill say it again, Israel is the root of problems in the Middle East as of today. Many of you fail to see Israel did not exist and it exists today on Palestinian land...not rocket science is it, even though other Arab nations do not say this, but they will never be content with Israel amongst them.

Israel the state did not exist until 1948 but the Jewish people, the ancestors of today's Israelis did.

They were one of a number of tribes who lived in Palestine, so in one sense the Israelis are Palestinians too.

There were already problems in Palestine between the Jews and the other tribes but the splitting of Palestine and the creation of Israel in 1948 intensified them and they have grown worse over the last 60 years.

Unfortunately, in order to resolve these problems military solutions were used and that's why we are in the situation we are now.

Perhaps the time has come for the UN and interested parties to review the splitting of Palestine and to come up with a mutually acceptable division of land. I do believe that all sides would prefer a fair peace to an endless war.

Originally Posted by ntluser

There were already problems in Palestine between the Jews and the other tribes but the splitting of Palestine and the creation of Israel in 1948 intensified them and they have grown worse over the last 60 years.

Perhaps the time has come for the UN and interested parties to review the splitting of Palestine and to come up with a mutually acceptable division of land. I do believe that all sides would prefer a fair peace to an endless war.

Exactly the splitting of Palestinian land, caused by Zionists, even certain jews disagree with their movement as they know this will only cause more hatred and anger.

You do not really believe that many arab muslims will accept Israel, seeing as it didnt even exist, and only exists today because they kicked out the palestinians where they wanted to build their borders?

Look at it this way, my house which I live in now, is invaded and captured by you, according to you, your great great great grandad promised you the land in a diary, in which the house stands on. To keep the neighbours happy with your actions, you allow me a 25% share of the house, as a use of propaganda so the neighbours dont accuse you of brutality and interfere. However you continue to mention you only want peace while I ruin your sky digibox and paint your leather sofas green. But you block my part of the house from food, aid etc. Your not going to get peace, until I get back what you took away from me.

I know the above example is a bit far fetched, however it is exactlty the same principal. If you were that house owner, would you let your house go and live under such blocades. Or would you want back what was yours in the 1st place?

Some may seem my points illogical to this gaza conflict, but like i said peace will never be at hand with Israel existance on Palestinian land in many of those palestinian eyes.

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by i-Set

Exactly the splitting of Palestinian land, caused by Zionists, even certain jews disagree with their movement as they know this will only cause more hatred and anger.

You do not really believe that many arab muslims will accept Israel, seeing as it didnt even exist, and only exists today because they kicked out the palestinians where they wanted to build their borders?

Look at it this way, my house which I live in now, is invaded and captured by you, according to you, your great great great grandad promised you the land in a diary, in which the house stands on. To keep the neighbours happy with your actions, you allow me a 25% share of the house, as a use of propaganda so the neighbours dont accuse you of brutality and interfere. However you continue to mention you only want peace while I ruin your sky digibox and paint your leather sofas green. But you block my part of the house from food, aid etc. Your not going to get peace, until I get back what you took away from me.

I know the above example is a bit far fetched, however it is exactlty the same principal. If you were that house owner, would you let your house go and live under such blocades. Or would you want back what was yours in the 1st place?

Some may seem my points illogical to this gaza conflict, but like i said peace will never be at hand with Israel existance on Palestinian land in many of those palestinian eyes.

You seem to be trying to suggest that the Jews/Israelis were never in Palestine and that they invaded and somehow displaced the existing Palestinians. That is not true.There are plenty of maps on the internet to show that the Jews/Israelis lived in Palestine as one of a number of tribes.

The hatred by Arab Muslims is such now that they do not want the Israelis ANYWHERE in Palestine even though they have a perfect right to be there.In some cases, the land occupied by Israel is land gained from one of its aggressive neighbours during a war. It seems that the Arab nations want to feel free to attack Israel but feel aggrieved that Israel should keep the land won as the spoils of war.

If we reset the Middle East map back to the times of Jesus about 2000 years ago, the Jews/Israelis would be living in the middle of Palestine surrounded by various tribes of Arab Muslims.

Even in those times the Jews/Israelis were subject to attack and I'm sure we all remember the tale of David & Goliath, which records their battle with the Philistines.

We also need to remember that most modern day Israelis aren't responsible for what happened 60 years ago in the same way that modern day Palestinians aren't responsible for the acts of their predecessors.

There will never be a perfect solution.There would have to be give and take on both sides. As I see it, the Middle East will continue to be a warzone for the forseeable future and beyond because all the participants favour military solutions to diplomatic ones. So we could still be hearing about this dispute in another 60 years. In the meantime, thousands of innocent people die unnecessarily.

[Dai]

The 'people of the book' co-existed in this land for many centuries. Not entirely peacefully of course but it worked.

Shame we can't get back to that state of affairs. They all have a historical right to be there but I'm saddened by the current climate of hatred and fear.

For any that have not heard that term before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book

Originally Posted by i-Set

Look at it this way, my house which I live in now, is invaded and captured by you, according to you, your great great great grandad promised you the land in a diary, in which the house stands on. To keep the neighbours happy with your actions, you allow me a 25% share of the house, as a use of propaganda so the neighbours dont accuse you of brutality and interfere. However you continue to mention you only want peace while I ruin your sky digibox and paint your leather sofas green. But you block my part of the house from food, aid etc. Your not going to get peace, until I get back what you took away from me.

It's not a valid comparison, there were loads of Jews in the region already. The issue was becoming difficult so the UN proposed two states, One for Jews and the other for Arabs. It was the Arabs who rejected this and started attacking Jewish targets (or sky boxes in your analogy).

[frogstamper]

Originally Posted by Damien

It's not a valid comparison, there were loads of Jews in the region already. The issue was becoming difficult so the UN proposed two states, One for Jews and the other for Arabs. It was the Arabs who rejected this and started attacking Jewish targets (or sky boxes in your analogy).

Exactly, and after the 67 war the Israeli's came out as the victors and claimed the land as spoils of war, obviously not an ideal outcome for the Palestinians.
But its ridiculous when people claim its all the other sides fault, and that "their side" are the total innocents, this has been going on so long that both sides are at fault and it'll never be sorted unless both sides are willing to compromise.
Israeli or Palestinian, both sides can go back generations siting atrocities from the other but whats the point? it only deepens age old prejudices.
I'm not saying forget whats happened but there is absolutely no chance of finding peace in the past, both sides have to look to the future.

[Osem]

I don't think many people really believe that both sides don't have to share some blame for what's going on. Israel, however, holds almost all the cards around this particular poker table and, as such, needs to understand and exercise the concept of restraint at this point.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7829912.stm

'Mistake' or not, shelling UN compounds isn't doing much to enhance their case with the public. I wonder how many Israelis would be as understanding of such errors if the boot were on the other foot, they were being bombed into oblivion and Hamas kept making mistakes like that.

I can see our friends awaiting entry to the Whitehouse praying that this'll get sorted before Obama takes office and can therefore still claim some sort of mitgation for the lack of action by the US.

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Osem

I don't think many people really believe that both sides don't have to share some blame for what's going on. Israel, however, holds almost all the cards around this particular poker table and, as such, needs to understand and exercise the concept of restraint at this point.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7829912.stm

'Mistake' or not, shelling UN compounds isn't doing much to enhance their case with the public. I wonder how many Israelis would be as understanding of such errors if the boot were on the other foot, they were being bombed into oblivion and Hamas kept making mistakes like that.

I can see our friends awaiting entry to the Whitehouse praying that this'll get sorted before Obama takes office and can therefore still claim some sort of mitgation for the lack of action by the US.

The Israelis said they would stop their action when Hamas stopped firing the rockets but as Hamas are continuing, in spite of all their casualties, to fire the rockets it seems likely that the campaign will continue.

The shelling of UN compounds is unfortunate, which is presumably why aid agencies are staying out of the region. However, in a war zone it is possible for agency staff to be killed by either side so it is understandable that they do not want to put their lives at risk.

Israel could withdraw tomorrow but Hamas would still keep firing rockets as there has been no statement from them saying the rocket bombardment would stop, so Hamas do not seem to believe in exercising restraint either.

Israel are pounding the Palestinians as an example to others in the region to let them know what they can expect if they try to take offensive action.

I expect and agree that by the time Obama gets into power this skirmish will probably be over. However, the unwillingness of Hamas to stop firing rockets will only serve to convince him that Israel needs US help more than ever.

[Osem]

So your contention is that Hamas must act first and Israel then follow? The problem is that I don't think if Hamas stopped firing rockets tomorrow Israel would a) stop it's action and b) give back that which it's taken. Perhaps the possibility that Hamas agrees with my cynical view answers the question as to why they don't stop firing rockets.

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Osem

So your contention is that Hamas must act first and Israel then follow? The problem is that I don't think if Hamas stopped firing rockets tomorrow Israel would a) stop it's action and b) give back that which it's taken. Perhaps the possibility that Hamas agrees with my cynical view answers the question as to why they don't stop firing rockets.

Hamas has not tried the ceasefire option so we do not know what Israel will do. Hamas could request a ceasefire and ask that UN observers or indeed a peacekeeping force be immediately in place at the moment of cessation to ensure that Israel withdrew.

It is worth remembering that Hamas had the option to cease fire BEFORE Israel even moved into Gaza as the Israeli tanks collected on the Gaza border and Israel had stated its intention to invade.

As for giving things back, nothing was said by Israel about that.They merely stated that they would invade Gaza if Hamas kept firing rockets and true to their word they did.

Any negotiations re: the splitting of Palestine would require arbiters like the UN or some other organisation to provide a forum for discussions and to note the concessions, compromises and agreements made by both sides. Another possibility would be to go though the International courts.

Appeals for the Israelis to show restraint are wasted at the moment as Hamas have demonstrated that they intend to keep firing rockets. Each day the Palestinian death toll gets higher but the world just watches as they will not sending personnel into the area until a ceasefire is announced.There may be plenty of diplomatic action to bring about the ceasefire but neither Hamas or Israel seems interested at the moment.

If the Hamas leader wants to keep firing rockets then he must be prepared to see more and more of his people killed, unless they can be evacuated to safety. However, the choice of what action to take lies with the Palestinians, who have yet to state their intentions.

[soicky]

Originally Posted by ntluser

The Israelis said they would stop their action when Hamas stopped firing the rockets but as Hamas are continuing, in spite of all their casualties, to fire the rockets it seems likely that the campaign will continue.

The shelling of UN compounds is unfortunate, which is presumably why aid agencies are staying out of the region. However, in a war zone it is possible for agency staff to be killed by either side so it is understandable that they do not want to put their lives at risk.

Israel could withdraw tomorrow but Hamas would still keep firing rockets as there has been no statement from them saying the rocket bombardment would stop, so Hamas do not seem to believe in exercising restraint either.

Israel are pounding the Palestinians as an example to others in the region to let them know what they can expect if they try to take offensive action.

I expect and agree that by the time Obama gets into power this skirmish will probably be over. However, the unwillingness of Hamas to stop firing rockets will only serve to convince him that Israel needs US help more than ever.

If you were the leader of Hamas and your land was being blockaded by Israel what would you do?

Israel does not want to lift the blockade for a ceasefire, Hamas has said they will have a ceasefire which includes them stop firing rockets, the blockade lifted and Israel leaves Gaza but Israel has refused this.