Christianity a History - Page 3

demented · 14-01-2009, 00:41

I think alferret's point about the Jesus myth is a legitimate opinion to have, but not one I would agree with (unless you're distinguishing between the different viewpoints). It could have been a direction for the programme but it was filmed from a modern day Jewish perspective which I think was good for programme. It's got a different presenter every week, so there's probably the odd one anyone would find fascinating. The only other thing is I would say contrary to what other posters have said on here the series has very little to do with the history of faith of ancestors or otherwise, at this point in the series it seems to be very much about history or history of the religion, not faith.

Ann Widdecombe on selected for the reformation really made me laugh

. I'm sure that one will be a good 'un though.

**Maggy** · 14-01-2009, 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by demented

I think alferret's point about the Jesus myth is a legitimate opinion to have, but not one I would agree with (unless you're distinguishing between the different viewpoints). It could have been a direction for the programme but it was filmed from a modern day Jewish perspective which I think was good for programme. It's got a different presenter every week, so there's probably the odd one anyone would find fascinating. The only other thing is I would say contrary to what other posters have said on here the series has very little to do with the history of faith of ancestors or otherwise, at this point in the series it seems to be very much about history or history of the religion, not faith.

Ann Widdecombe on selected for the reformation really made me laugh

. I'm sure that one will be a good 'un though.

Ok what is the history of Christian faith as opposed to the history of Christianity?How can one be a Christian without faith?

I'd have said they were synonymous myself.You cannot have one without the other so you cannot separate the two history wise..

demented · 14-01-2009, 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Ok what is the history of Christian faith as opposed to the history of Christianity?How can one be a Christian without faith?

I'd have said they were synonymous myself.You cannot have one without the other so you cannot separate the two history wise..

Well one being a set of personal beliefs and the other being a religion. It would have been interesting to have a history of christian faith but I can't imagine anyone but Terry Jones or the Bishop of Durham doing something like that.

As for your other question, how can be a christian without faith? I would say in the more specific meaning it is possible to be a christian without faith, it's just mostly the reformation that screwed that up. That would then make you a christian without big f faith but these views being personalised ones would then be faith (other meaning).

Russ · 14-01-2009, 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by demented

As for your other question, how can be a christian without faith? I would say in the more specific meaning it is possible to be a christian without faith, it's just mostly the reformation that screwed that up. That would then make you a christian without big f faith but these views being personalised ones would then be faith (other meaning).

I've heard that notion before and it's never struck me as anything other than absurd.

Christianity is based on faith. We are rewarded for having it. No amount of spin or 'mistranslation' can change that. I simply fail to see how anyone can be a Christian without faith. I haven't seen the programme but the bits I did catch would seem to back this up.

demented · 14-01-2009, 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

I've heard that notion before and it's never struck me as anything other than absurd.

Christianity is based on faith. We are rewarded for having it. No amount of spin or 'mistranslation' can change that. I simply fail to see how anyone can be a Christian without faith. I haven't seen the programme but the bits I did catch would seem to back this up.

Of course it would strike you as absurd, just like if I said the same thing to the people I was brought up with, as it seems you participate in a similar brand of Christianity as they do, where faith was said several times in the same sentance. To someone else it would make more sense though.

The programme was about the historical Jesus or whatever you want to call it and it was from a Jewish perspective. In that sense (much of but not all of) it was history rather theology or "in the ancient world citizen x might have thought y"). So it was history, not faith. A programme on faith could have been made and that would have been interesting.

Russ · 14-01-2009, 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by demented

Of course it would strike you as absurd, just like if I said the same thing to the people I was brought up with, as it seems you participate in a similar brand of Christianity as they do, where faith was said several times in the same sentance. To someone else it would make more sense though.

To be honest it would seem absurd to anyone brought up with the bible - faith is the very basic tenet of Christianity no matter how you look at it. I'm very curious to know which demonination you're referring to - in my 7 years experience I have never met a Christian who does not hold faith.

demented · 14-01-2009, 02:09

Of course the other meaning of faith is not mutually exclusive to Christianity. On the other hand there is a great difference on emphasis of this meaning of faith. It's not like unitarians, quakers, catholics or whatever believe in sola fide. Yet most protestants bang on about it endlessly. It's only really like that in common conversation as we live in a country that was on that side in the reformation. It's been a trendy phrase since the reformation because (a) it promotes that aspect of protestantism (b) people have a phobia of the r word and by instead emphasising on the personal beliefs aspect of it it again reinforces protestantism.

I just said I think it's possible to be a christian without faith. It's not especially likely with how the balance of christianity falls but there you go. Of course there are going to be people that say you need faith alone or whatever else, if people didn't believe that we wouldn't have the reformation and all would be hunky dory.

Russ · 14-01-2009, 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by demented

I just said I think it's possible to be a christian without faith.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course

But then this leaves me wondering what on earth your definition of a Christian is if you believe it's possible some don't have faith....

papa smurf · 14-01-2009, 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course

But then this leaves me wondering what on earth your definition of a Christian is if you believe it's possible some don't have faith....

you need to have the faith that the faithless are as faithful as there lack of faith allows, there-for there faithless faith makes them just as faithful as the next man [ you see its simple]

**Maggy** · 14-01-2009, 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course

But then this leaves me wondering what on earth your definition of a Christian is if you believe it's possible some don't have faith....

Perhaps he means the token Christian who wants to have a church wedding and a church Christening but doesn't actually have that much faith?

Kymmy · 14-01-2009, 19:56

Finally got round to watching the first episode...

A brilliant documentary which exposes more realistic facts than the rewritten history taught by the curches of the world.. I'm looking forward to the rest of the series...

demented · 15-01-2009, 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course

But then this leaves me wondering what on earth your definition of a Christian is if you believe it's possible some don't have faith....

Someone who believes in God. All the stuff about Jesus as the son of God being an optional extra module, as is faith alone and the other solas.

Russ · 15-01-2009, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by demented

Someone who believes in God.

On that basis are you suggesting satan is a Christian?

And isn't *believing in something* the same as having faith it exists?

demented · 15-01-2009, 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

On that basis are you suggesting satan is a Christian?

And isn't *believing in something* the same as having faith it exists?

Satan isn't human. I'll refer that one whether angels or other entities are christians upstairs. In anycase if one believed in the more narrow definition of faith the answer would be irrelevent as they couldn't have faith in the same way.

No, *believing in something* isn't always the same as having faith it exists. I've already said I think faith as a general set of religious beliefs, christians have. The more specific definitions of faith of doing something with specific meaning, of which hundreds of years have been spent arguing about it, no. People seem to spend a lot of time saying they have more faith than someone else, but to me it sounds to me as something more never reached, again which is why I said I don't think most Christians have it. Maybe you disagree, maybe you think every true Christian is a Knight of faith. The vast majority of Christians do say they have it in some way or other and I'm not really interested in telling them their beliefs are wrong or they must/must not have it to be true Christians. It's not really possible summing up any of these in short messages on an internet forum.

My original point that seemed to have been missed was a large part of the series is history, or history of the religion. There's nothing funny about that, a book I've read was called The History of Christianity for that very reason. A point about a history of faith is it would be a documentary in large part on what individuals in the past believed. If one wanted to make a documentary about the narrower definition of faith that'd be pretty much probably end up a history of protestant theology though. I'm sure Ann Widdecombe will mention some of this in a few weeks

.

Russ · 15-01-2009, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by demented

Satan isn't human. I'll refer that one whether angels or other entities are christians upstairs. In anycase if one believed in the more narrow definition of faith the answer would be irrelevent as they couldn't have faith in the same way.

So your criteria for being a Christian is just someone who believes in God? Curious...

I have to say you're the first person I've ever come across who thinks faith is not a requirement for being a Christians. Still, it takes all sorts I guess