Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[Osem]

Originally Posted by ntluser

The rockets are being fired from somewhere in Gaza and Palestinians on the ground will be able to see mobile rocket launchers or militants in their area, which would be a good indicator to non-militants that they should move out of that area.

Gaza is a battlefield so there are no safe areas, but the safer places are probably away from the front lines where the rocket launchers are.

The problem is that rocket launchers are mobile so that this morning's safe area becomes this afternoon's front lines.

As has been said a number of times, Hamas is the legitimate government voted in by the people.They are only now feeling the consequences of allowing Hamas to implement its policies.

By now there must be many areas within Gaza that are inhabitable and unoccupied.If Hamas is choosing to fire rockets why is it that such areas are not used. In that way no non-militants will get in the line of fire. Why is it that they choose to fire rockets from densely populated non-militant areas or use vulnerable places like hospitals and schools?

I'm glad that Israel made the effort to steer non-militants away from targeted areas. Pity really that all genuine non-militants could not be given safe Haven in Egypt until the fighting by Hamas is over.

As for Hamas members, supporters or sympathisers, at the rate things are going, there will be no Hamas members, supporters or sympathisers left to worry about, certainly not in Gaza and that is where it counts.

The world ( and forum members) will watch and wait but there is no cavalry to ride to the rescue as no other country wants to have its own nationals killed, which is understandable.

Everyone worldwide ( and on this forum) will have their own opinion about the rights and wrongs of the matter and we could debate it until Doomsday but the only opinions that count are those of the Palestinians and Israelis because they have the ones with the power to determine their own futures.

Let's pray for the non-militants caught up in this tragedy, who just want to go about their daily lives peaceably and live through the conflict.

Let's hope and pray too that common sense prevails and that the bloodshed stops, because even after all this is over the Palestinians and Israelis are still going to have to find a way to live peaceably together.

Of course, but if the Israelis are going to tell people to seek safe areas they have to ensure they have safe areas to go to. If the UN, Red Cross or whoever tells the Israelis that innocent people are seeking refuge in certain places then the Israelis should ensure they're not bombed or shelled. That poor doctor lost 16 of his family who were sheltering in a school which was supposed to be safe from Israeli attacks!

The Israelis could kill everyone in Gaza and still not be safe. They can't kill hatred. Their actions are creating it around the globe! I repeat something I wrote in an earlier post - there is not a single Jew inside or outside Israel who's safer as a result of this murderous campaign. Quite the reverse!

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Osem

Of course, but if the Israelis are going to tell people to seek safe areas they have to ensure they have safe areas to go to. If the UN, Red Cross or whoever tells the Israelis that innocent people are seeking refuge in certain places then the Israelis should ensure they're not bombed or shelled. That poor doctor lost 16 of his family who were sheltering in a school which was supposed to be safe from Israeli attacks!

The Israelis could kill everyone in Gaza and still not be safe. They can't kill hatred. Their actions are creating it around the globe! I repeat something I wrote in an earlier post - there is not a single Jew inside or outside Israel who's safer as a result of this murderous campaign. Quite the reverse!

As I said previously there are no safe places on the Gaza battlefield, for either Palestinian or Israeli. The leaflets simply advise non-Militant Palestinians to stay away from militants, but that's easier said than done as the militants are mobile and could turn up anywhere in Gaza.

The leaflets ask non-militants to inform on the militants to shorten the conflict but like everybody else outside Gaza I don't know what the response has been.

Your comment about the doctor is heartbreaking but warfare is not and never has been an exact science and no doubt we will hear of many similar incidents from both sides.

It's quite possible for the Israelis to kill everyone in Gaza either by accident or design. I doubt whether they are interested in World opinion and probably recognise that no matter what they do they will never be totally safe.What they will do is turn Israel into as safe a haven for Israelis as it can be.

Given that this Palestinian-Israeli conflict has been going on since 1947,there is no safe place for Israelis not even in Israel, but neither is there a safe place for Palestinians. The two sides seemed destined to be in conflict for some time.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by ntluser

As I said previously there are no safe places on the Gaza battlefield, for either Palestinian or Israeli. The leaflets simply advise non-Militant Palestinians to stay away from militants, but that's easier said than done as the militants are mobile and could turn up anywhere in Gaza.

Sorry but that's not the impression those who were killed had when they went to that school. The leaflets are telling people to leave their homes but where are they supposed to go? The aid organisations are trying to provide safe areas for those displaced but for reasons best known to themselves the Israelis have attacked some such areas. What on earth is the point of dropping leaflets telling people to move when they don't know where to go and even when they do find supposed refuge they're bombed? Israel's actions are winning them no friends and creating yet more animosity and hatred around the globe. Where is the logic in what they're doing? What's the current tally now? 900 v. a dozen? How many more innocent people are the Israelis prepared to murder? When was the last time 16 entirely innocent members of a single Jewish family were killed by Hamas? The scale and indiscrimination of Israel's actions beggars belief and will serve only to up the ante in respect of reprisals against Jews both inside and outside Israel.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

I do think Israel cares about world opinion as they do not want International journalists to go into Gaza freely. They do not want the world to see what sort of attrocities their soldiers are commiting. I have been watching some footage that has come out of Gaza (i'm assuming it is genuine) over the last week or so and it is truly horrific.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7823361.stm

In Gaza the main hospital is close to collapse, according to two Norwegian doctors who have been working there during the conflict.



They said patients at al-Shifa hospital are dying because of a lack of specialist doctors and basic medical equipment.
Doctors Mads Gilbert and Erik Fosse said half of their patients were civilians, some of them young children with shrapnel and blast wounds.
They told the BBC that 12 ambulance staff had been killed in shelling, despite their clearly-marked vehicles.
Frequent power cuts mean surgeons are having to perform some operations by torchlight, they said.
"I think we could sum it by saying that it's been a living hell for the Palestinians," said Dr Gilbert.
Aid agencies say Gaza's 1.5 million residents are in urgent need of food and medical aid. Meanwhile, Israel's army denied deploying white phosphorus bombs in Gaza, after Palestinian medics said they had treated patients for burns caused by the munitions.

[Osem]

Yes, their refusal to allow access to independent journalists speaks volumes about what's going on. I still haven't heard a single person successully explain how what Israel is doing is making Jewish people safer.

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Osem

Sorry but that's not the impression those who were killed had when they went to that school. The leaflets are telling people to leave their homes but where are they supposed to go? The aid organisations are trying to provide safe areas for those displaced but for reasons best known to themselves the Israelis have attacked some such areas. What on earth is the point of dropping leaflets telling people to move when they don't know where to go and even when they do find supposed refuge they're bombed? Israel's actions are winning them no friends and creating yet more animosity and hatred around the globe. Where is the logic in what they're doing? What's the current tally now? 900 v. a dozen? How many more innocent people are the Israelis prepared to murder? When was the last time 16 entirely innocent members of a single Jewish family were killed by Hamas? The scale and indiscrimination of Israel's actions beggars belief and will serve only to up the ante in respect of reprisals against Jews both inside and outside Israel.

Looking at this thread the leaflets do not appear to tell them to leave their homes:-
http://www.psywar.org/forum/index.ph...78.msg787.html

Despite all the deaths, which ARE truly horrific, I suspect that at the end of each day, the Israeli commander-in-chief asks their staff one question.."Have Hamas stopped firing rockets into Israel?" When the commander gets the answer "No", it is assumed that enough has not been done to persuade the Palestinians to cease fire and the Israeli campaign is upped a notch.

Many non-Militant Palestinian deaths could be avoided if the Militants did the following:-

a) requested a ceasefire long enough for the non-militants, the injured and dying to be evacuated from Gaza to Egypt
b) only launched their rockets from areas which were unpopulated
c) dressed in clear Hamas battledress and not in civilian clothing
d) did not use "safe" buildings as valid battle positions

The problem for the Militants is that to do that would be counter to sound battle tactics, because in wartime soldiers on both sides do what is necessary to win however horrific or immoral.

Given that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict has been going on for more than 60 years it is impossible for me to say whether 16 members of the same family have been killed by Hamas because it could have been done by degrees over a number of years. Either way, ANY death, Palestinian or Israeli is tragic and unacceptable especially when it is avoidable.

The world is clearly unhappy about what is happening in Gaza but any action by them at present is likely to come when the conflict is over, which, as we both know, will be too late for many Palestinians. There may well be a lot of ill feeling towards Israelis all over the world but then having said that, it has existed for the last 60 years or so anyway.

To talk of reprisals suggests further acts of violence against Israelis worldwide but they have gone on previously anyway. It also suggests that it is more important to take revenge on Israelis rather than find a mutually acceptable solution which secures a peaceful future equally for Palestinians and Israelis alike.

I suspect that Hamas is going to fight to the bitter end, which is very unfortunate. Many Palestinians will die an unnecessary death. Some Israelis will die too, but in the end both sides will still have to agree conditions for peace.

Pressure from the outside world will not save Hamas because the records of history are written by the victors. I wonder how many injustices have taken place in previous wars round the world that have gone unreported, where the guilty parties have gone unpunished simply because there was no-one left to give their side in the argument or report the facts?

The lack of independent reporting in Gaza simply means that outsiders have no reliable evidence of what is going on since witnesses in Gaza can be biased or mistaken. The only way that will change is if both the Palestinians and the Israelis cease fire, which seems highly unlikely.

Sadly, even the protest in London outside the Israeli embassy degenerated into a violent battle with the police and completely undermined its peaceful purpose.

Hopefully, both sides will learn that, in disputes, violence is not the answer.

[Osem]

So if they're not being told to leave their homes do we assume their homes safe from attack? If they're not safe what other option do they have?

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/applications...office/?p=2959

Yes the Jews have been victimised for a very long tiime but the difference between then and now is that even those traditionally supportive of Israel's plight are turning against them. How much more evdience do Israel's leaders need before they see that what they're doing is morally wrong, isn't going to solve their problems and will only add to the hatred.

Yes many problems could be solved if there were no militants but in what way is the innocent population responsible for the actions of the minority of militants who are firing rockets? Perhaps we should bomb Parkistan into oblivion because of that country's links with militants and terrorists. What would such action achieve except generate even more hatred and more terrorists? The closest example we've had of a situation similar to that endured by Israel in recent years was the IRA conflict. Did the Govt. resort to the indiscriminate bombing and murder of republican areas and civilians to solve that seemingly insoluble problem? Should we have bombed Dublin? Despite the most grotesque provocation by the IRA and their ilk we didn't resort to that and didn't dialogue prevail in the end?

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Osem

So if they're not being told to leave their homes do we assume their homes safe from attack? If they're not safe what other option do they have?

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/applications...office/?p=2959

Yes the Jews have been victimised for a very long tiime but the difference between then and now is that even those traditionally supportive of Israel's plight are turning against them. How much more evdience do Israel's leaders need before they see that what they're doing is morally wrong, isn't going to solve their problems and will only add to the hatred.

Yes many problems could be solved if there were no militants but in what way is the innocent population responsible for the actions of the minority of militants who are firing rockets? Perhaps we should bomb Parkistan into oblivion because of that country's links with militants and terrorists. What would such action achieve except generate even more hatred and more terrorists? The closest example we've had of a situation similar to that endured by Israel in recent years was the IRA conflict. Did the Govt. resort to the indiscriminate bombing and murder of republican areas and civilians to solve that seemingly insoluble problem? Should we have bombed Dublin? Despite the most grotesque provocation by the IRA and their ilk we didn't resort to that and didn't dialogue prevail in the end?

Firing rockets into Israel is not going to win the Palestinians many friends either.

The campaign started by Israel is designed to stop Hamas firing rockets into Israel.It follows that it will continue until that happens.

In the IRA scenario, soldiers were placed in Ulster to keep the peace, which was not appreciated by either Catholics or Protestants, but at no time did the IRA fire rockets from Ireland or Ulster into England. Even with the soldiers in place there were incidents like "Bloody Sunday" where innocent people were caught up in gunfire between the British Army and the IRA.

I doubt if the Palestinians will like it if, in order to preserve the peace, the Israelis or even the UN place a peace-keeping force into Gaza to stop the violence or the smuggling in of weapons.

We know that there have been deaths on a massive scale. We know that there are many people around the world ( including you and me) who are uphappy about the carnage but what we and others think isn't going to change the fact that Hamas is firing its rockets and Israel is trying to stop them. Israel won't withdraw until the firing of rockets stops. Hamas can do that voluntarily or the Israelis can pound away until there is no-one left who is able and willing to fire rockets. But Hamas won't stop and so it all goes on.

Whichever way you look at it, violence is not the answer because history shows that after each war there are negotiations for peace.

[BBKing]

Apropos of nothing, anyone who saw last week's Sun's front page story (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle2103995.ece) about EVIL MUSLIMS THREATENING ALAN SUGAR (or words to that effect) might like to know that the Sun got conned by one of these shady 'Extremism Experts'. Apparently the chap went onto an Islamic website and posted under a pseudonym saying 'wouldn't it be great if we drew up a list of British Jews' then sold the story to the Sun. They've taken it down without explanation...

http://www.bloggerheads.com/archives...jenvey_has.asp
http://www.bloggerheads.com/archives...un_no_comm.asp

The other thing to note is how the story was taken up enthusiastically by right-wing US bloggers, who of course support Israel unconditionally. If you find yourself agreeing with such types, ask yourself if they're entirely trustworthy.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by ntluser

Firing rockets into Israel is not going to win the Palestinians many friends either.

The campaign started by Israel is designed to stop Hamas firing rockets into Israel.It follows that it will continue until that happens.
In the IRA scenario, soldiers were placed in Ulster to keep the peace, which was not appreciated by either Catholics or Protestants, but at no time did the IRA fire rockets from Ireland or Ulster into England. Even with the soldiers in place there were incidents like "Bloody Sunday" where innocent people were caught up in gunfire between the British Army and the IRA.
I doubt if the Palestinians will like it if, in order to preserve the peace, the Israelis or even the UN place a peace-keeping force into Gaza to stop the violence or the smuggling in of weapons.

We know that there have been deaths on a massive scale. We know that there are many people around the world ( including you and me) who are uphappy about the carnage but what we and others think isn't going to change the fact that Hamas is firing its rockets and Israel is trying to stop them. Israel won't withdraw until the firing of rockets stops. Hamas can do that voluntarily or the Israelis can pound away until there is no-one left who is able and willing to fire rockets. But Hamas won't stop and so it all goes on.

Whichever way you look at it, violence is not the answer because history shows that after each war there are negotiations for peace.

Correct but Eire and parts of the North were used by Republicans for equally murderous ends - the car bombs and mortars brought across the border might not have been rockets but they were just as deadly. How many innocent people were killed by British bombs and white phosphorous in NI?? Does it in any way match the indiscriminate carnage inflicted by Israel in Gaza??

We're going to have to beg to differ on this one I'm afriad. The fact is that Israel is killing more innocent Palestinians than Hamas has ever killed Jews. Unlike Hamas, with very limited means by which to fight, Israel has the latest weapons and equipment and even so is still killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children. I don't condone what Hamas has done in continuing this barbarism the Israelis are showing themselves to be no better than those they claim to be fighting. Indeed for many previously staunch supporters of Israel like me, they're worse! In what way is this action going to make them safer?

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Osem

Correct but Eire and parts of the North were used by Republicans for equally murderous ends - the car bombs and mortars brought across the border might not have been rockets but they were just as deadly. How many innocent people were killed by British bombs and white phosphorous in NI?? Does it in any way match the indiscriminate carnage inflicted by Israel in Gaza??

We're going to have to beg to differ on this one I'm afriad. The fact is that Israel is killing more innocent Palestinians than Hamas has ever killed Jews. Unlike Hamas, with very limited means by which to fight, Israel has the latest weapons and equipment and even so is still killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children. I don't condone what Hamas has done in continuing this barbarism the Israelis are showing themselves to be no better than those they claim to be fighting. Indeed for many previously staunch supporters of Israel like me, they're worse! In what way is this action going to make them safer?

I don't condone what Israel is doing but then again I don't condone the actions of Hamas either. Though the Palestinian firepower is less, it nevertheless has the potential to kill.

I think that we're probably agreed that the scale of the deaths is horrendous, and that many innocent people have lost their lives unnecessarily.

The same was true in Ireland, but unfortunately that's part of the nature of war. When the war stops, for the most part, the deaths stop.

The Israeli action does not make Israelis safer as individually they can be hurt or killed anywhere in the world as they can now. The same is true for Palestinians.

This Israeli campaign is about preserving the sanctity of Israel the state. In other words, it's about providing safety within the bounds of Israel. It won't be total safety but it will be as close as they can get, because they will keep all their enemies at a distance. They blockade Gaza and for the most part shut the suicide bombers out of Israel.

The Israelis want to put the Palestinians in a ghetto without arms so that they can forget about them. As long as the Palestinians are unarmed and harmless, the Israelis will ignore them but if they get weapons that is a different story.

It is a far from happy situation and each night I pray that the fighting will come promptly to an end.

Unfortunately, only the Israelis & Palestinians can do anything about that.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by ntluser

I don't condone what Israel is doing but then again I don't condone the actions of Hamas either. Though the Palestinian firepower is less, it nevertheless has the potential to kill.

I think that we're probably agreed that the scale of the deaths is horrendous, and that many innocent people have lost their lives unnecessarily.

The same was true in Ireland, but unfortunately that's part of the nature of war. When the war stops, for the most part, the deaths stop.

The Israeli action does not make Israelis safer as individually they can be hurt or killed anywhere in the world as they can now. The same is true for Palestinians.

This Israeli campaign is about preserving the sanctity of Israel the state. In other words, it's about providing safety within the bounds of Israel. It won't be total safety but it will be as close as they can get, because they will keep all their enemies at a distance. They blockade Gaza and for the most part shut the suicide bombers out of Israel.

The Israelis want to put the Palestinians in a ghetto without arms so that they can forget about them. As long as the Palestinians are unarmed and harmless, the Israelis will ignore them but if they get weapons that is a different story.

It is a far from happy situation and each night I pray that the fighting will come promptly to an end.

Unfortunately, only the Israelis & Palestinians can do anything about that.

That, is a logical, well thought out post m8. Your reasoning is spot on.

http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/19027

I recommend all to read the above link, for those who do not know the history of the area prior to this genocide by the Zionist movement on innocent children.

[ginge51]

Unusually Large U.S. Weapons Shipment to Israel: Are the US and Israel Planning a Broader Middle East War?

A very large delivery of US weaponry to Israel consisting of 3,000 tons of "ammunition" is scheduled to sail to Israel. The size and nature of the shipments are described as "unusual":

"Shipping 3,000-odd tons of ammunition in one go is a lot," one broker said, on condition of anonymity.

"This (kind of request) is pretty rare and we haven't seen much of it quoted in the market over the years," he added.

"Shipping brokers in London who have specialized in moving arms for the British and U.S. military in the past said such ship charters to Israel were rare. (Reuters, Jan 10, 2009)

The two shipments of "ammunition" are slated to arrive in Israel, respectively no later than the 25th and 31st of January

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11743

[frogstamper]

Originally Posted by i-Set

http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/19027

I recommend all to read the above link, for those who do not know the history of the area prior to this genocide by the Zionist movement on innocent children.

David Icke!!! you are surly not expecting a balanced account from this loony?
then again from the tone of your post and claims of genocide it appears you have been reading too much from the likes of David Icke.
BTW What is the murder of Israeli children by Hamas rockets or suicide bombers called, or don't they count?