Brown on the ropes?

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by alferret

As a 22yr old Damien I'm sure you have a wealth of experience.
Having lived through more Labour years than I care to remember and being no fan of Labour all I can say is that IMO Brown is spineless, he isnt decent, because if he was he would do the right thing, step down and allow a general election to be called.
This country isnt as you put it "obsessed" its just that the vast majority of people feel that he is dragging this country down a hole thats gonna take some getting out of.

The bloke isnt and elected prime minister so he doesnt deserve to be where he is.

Well bloody said that man.

Originally Posted by Osem

Surely nobody decent would lie and/or spin in the way he and Bliar have done ever since 1997 would they??....

To be honest, Alistair Darling tried a more "honest" approach the other week when he admitted the economical was in serious trouble (although I disagree with his dire assessment). Look where that got him.

I thinking the spin is not unique to Labour, Britain, or even politics. I think its a symptom of a society which is too tolerant of lies and not tolerant enough about mistakes.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

Ok, But two things to that:

First of all, I am not saying he is a great PM. All I am saying is that he does not have malicious intent in mind, at least I see no good reason to suspect that. It's quite easy to separate his personality and the politics from this. Stepping down is something that he properly does not want to do because he might believe he can do good (also, I suspect few would want to give up that position so quickly)

Also, My point about obsession is that this public attitude is not something Unique to Brown, or Blair. It's extends to most, of not all, politicians and also other people who serve the public. Such as police and to a lesser extent medical professionals. It's just a disrespect to authority, public service and often times people who have achieved something.

Is that an indictment of the public or just the calibre of our politicians?

Is that an indictment of the puiblic or just the calibre of our politicians?

Both, I think we get the leaders we deserve.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

To be honest, Alistair Darling tried a more "honest" approach the other week when he admitted the economical was in serious trouble (although I disagree with his dire assessment). Look where that got him.

I thinking the spin is not unique to Labour, Britain, or even politics. I think its a symptom of a society which is too tolerant of lies and not tolerant enough about mistakes.

It may have got him in hot water with brown but at least nobody could accuse him of spinning.

---------- Post added at 22:09 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

Both, I think we get the leaders we deserve.

So politicians/leaders can't mould society, they just reflect it?

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Damien

often times people who have achieved something.

I can tell you one thing he has achieved. The worst funding of the armed forces they have ever seen. My son had to buy his own kit for his last tour in Afghanistan, The reason was that they did not have enough in the stores to supply them all with the correct kit. So instead of using kit that was out of date and dilapidated he had to pay for his own , Who has had his hands on the budget for the last 10 years. Brown the non elected that's who.

so you can see why i have no time for him or his so called party

[Osem]

Quite - and just how many times has Brown told us how much respect he has for our armed forces??

Brown's "Respect" is vying with the Zimbawean Dollar as the World's most devalued currency - it buys precious little!

---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:19 ----------

Blimey, things at No 10 must be bad - even Clegg's jumped on the bandwagon now:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7614418.stm

So politicians/leaders can't mould society, they just reflect it?

Yes, After all they really are a reflection of our society. They are a product of our society and It's very hard for them to change society because we are a very large group of many different people are are rightfully resistant to anyone telling us what to do. How can you change a society and it's culture? You can't*, it requires a critical mass of people before change can happen.

As a result a lot of social problems are caused and resolved by us together and not by sitting back and demanding the government do it. Look at youth crime, teenage pregnancy and so forth. Realistically, what could the government do about that? It's a problem that society needs to fix and the government to facilitate (give the tools to do so).

People seem to be unwilling to accept some personal responsibility and instead demand the government fix it. (A lot of social problems can not be tackled by government alone). A lot of people, including me, are not willing to investigate the complexities of every issue (and why should they? They have lives to led which is why we elect people in the first place) but are willing to form a passionate thought and express it based on little information such as news sources which can rarely impart the full story. Thus governments are forced to act on it which either leads to bad policy or spin, often both. They don't dare tackle the issue and make themselves look unpopular, something Brown is certainly guilty of.

So the public get sick of the lies they are in part reasonable for, someone else comes along and says "Hey, These guys are morons, I can solve this, this and this, it's easy!" and the cycle continues.

If we were more willing to be told we are wrong, more accepting the limitations of government, and more trusting (only a little more) of them on issues which we confess to know little about then we may begin to see a environment in which a politicians who are honest can be successful. It won't be perfect but it would be better, and we would have healthier dialogue between them and us as a result.

*something people should remember before thinking our culture can be changed by Muslims, Immigrants or whomever else, against the will of the majority.

[Matth]

"New" labour got in because people were fed up with the Tories, and now it seems pretty certain that the pattern will repeat.

People were fed up with Blair, fed up with the will he/won't he pass the baton to PM apparent Brown.

So Brown had a dead cat bounce because he wasn't Blair, and then the chancellor was to blame for not putting something away when things were better - and who was the chancellor - BROWN!

It's time we thought seriously about proportional representation, to halt the destructive shifts of ideology. The London assembly has shown there is a way to combine direct representation and proportional systems, negating one argument against PR that you would not have "your MP".

Another argument aginst PR, is that it could elect a BNP MP, though the shock protest vote would likely diminish under the fair representation of PR. Several other groups that may not be to everyone's taste could also get some seats, but equally, so could minority groups that you do agree with.

Ok Damien you want some examples of brownshirts political cowardice i will start with the most recent ones and allow you to look further back to see the long list. First he doesn't come straight out at blair for the leadership of the party and didn't challenge before the election he let his friends start the whispering campaign and then strolled into the job after as we now know a lot of behind the scene's bullying and threatening.

He gets the job goes 95% of the way towards calling an election a little bad press and bang runs for the hills how much is that one going to come back to bite him had he gone for the election at that time labour might have lost but it wouldn't have been as bad as it is going to be and he could have stayed leader blaming blair, so not only his political courage in doubt but also his judgement.

But to me the biggest act of cowardice on his part that in many ways has driven the rest of it was his haste to get out of the treasury knowing that he had squandered the good times and that the cost of that was coming home to roost. That drove his push to get blair out so he could stroll into the pm's job and at the same time this economical genius that for a decade was happy taking praise from everyone for his great handling of the economy now takes no responsibility whatsoever for the mess we are now in always blaming "global conditions".

He is not a decent man he is a devious, manipulative and bullying man that has got to a position he has always strived for only to find he isn't good enough for the job but again rather then admit that and make way no he will drag us all down trying to prove he can do a job that is obviously totally beyond him.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

Yes, After all they really are a reflection of our society. They are a product of our society and It's very hard for them to change society because we are a very large group of many different people are are rightfully resistant to anyone telling us what to do. How can you change a society and it's culture? You can't*, it requires a critical mass of people before change can happen.

As a result a lot of social problems are caused and resolved by us together and not by sitting back and demanding the government do it. Look at youth crime, teenage pregnancy and so forth. Realistically, what could the government do about that? It's a problem that society needs to fix and the government to facilitate (give the tools to do so).

People seem to be unwilling to accept some personal responsibility and instead demand the government fix it. (A lot of social problems can not be tackled by government alone). A lot of people, including me, are not willing to investigate the complexities of every issue (and why should they? They have lives to led which is why we elect people in the first place) but are willing to form a passionate thought and express it based on little information such as news sources which can rarely impart the full story. Thus governments are forced to act on it which either leads to bad policy or spin, often both. They don't dare tackle the issue and make themselves look unpopular, something Brown is certainly guilty of.

So the public get sick of the lies they are in part reasonable for, someone else comes along and says "Hey, These guys are morons, I can solve this, this and this, it's easy!" and the cycle continues.

If we were more willing to be told we are wrong, more accepting the limitations of government, and more trusting (only a little more) of them on issues which we confess to know little about then we may begin to see a environment in which a politicians who are honest can be successful. It won't be perfect but it would be better, and we would have healthier dialogue between them and us as a result.

*something people should remember before thinking our culture can be changed by Muslims, Immigrants or whomever else, against the will of the majority.

The government is directly responsible for the economy, the law and just about everything else that matters. If they cock it up, lie, cheat, spin etc. of course the public are going to get fed up and complain. Why wouldn't they? What power has the man in the street to change any of what they do except by voting them out? If I could affect what Brown does I wouldn't bother moaning about him on here I'd change the policy and get rid of him.

This government hasn't set any form of good example to the public and neither has it empowered people to do the right thing in many cases. In fact it's implemeted and/or presided over laws which remove the authority of parents, teachers etc. over our youth. It's done nothing tangible to tackle knife crime and the sort of gang culture which led to the likes of Gary Newlove and coutless others becoming victims of mindless violence.

Our leaders have lied, cheated and misled us throught their tenure and there's no escaping that fact. Were they our parents they'd have set the worst possible example to their children and that's why so many people despise them so much. They talked the talk but never had either the ability or intention of walking the walk.

They are useless and pathetic!

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Ok Damien you want some examples of brownshirts political cowardice i will start with the most recent ones and allow you to look further back to see the long list. First he doesn't come straight out at blair for the leadership of the party and didn't challenge before the election he let his friends start the whispering campaign and then strolled into the job after as we now know a lot of behind the scene's bullying and threatening.

He gets the job goes 95% of the way towards calling an election a little bad press and bang runs for the hills how much is that one going to come back to bite him had he gone for the election at that time labour might have lost but it wouldn't have been as bad as it is going to be and he could have stayed leader blaming blair, so not only his political courage in doubt but also his judgement.

But to me the biggest act of cowardice on his part that in many ways has driven the rest of it was his haste to get out of the treasury knowing that he had squandered the good times and that the cost of that was coming home to roost. That drove his push to get blair out so he could stroll into the pm's job and at the same time this economical genius that for a decade was happy taking praise from everyone for his great handling of the economy now takes no responsibility whatsoever for the mess we are now in always blaming "global conditions".

He is not a decent man he is a devious, manipulative and bullying man that has got to a position he has always strived for only to find he isn't good enough for the job but again rather then admit that and make way no he will drag us all down trying to prove he can do a job that is obviously totally beyond him.

Did he not also sign this country down the river at a different time to everyone else with that European constitution thing so he could keep it quiet.

I just wish he and his party would do the right thing and get the hell out before they drag this country even further in to the crap they have created.

[papa smurf]

and when those around him tell him he's wrong he sacks them, what a guy

[Sirius]

Just seen this on another site

Dear Gordon,

How would you prefer to be humiliated?

- By a vote of no confidence from your own Party?
- By a devastating election defeat?
- By your legacy?

Is there any fight in you or are you just hoping to keep your head down for two more years?

Blair and Thatcher were leaders and fighters. What about you?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

and when those around him tell him he's wrong he sacks them, what a guy

Yes - he was supposed to be the listening PM wasn't he?? I mean ever since he took over from Bliar he's been telling everyone how he'll be different i.e. no more spin; face challenges; do the right thing; admit mistakes; listen to the people etc. etc. blah blah blah...

The guy coveted power for years and in the haste to gain it he lied and misled us just as much as Bliar ever did. He listens only to what he wants to hear.

Brown has all the worst traits of Bliar coupled with a charisma bypass.