Why Does Everyone Think Virgin Are Rubbish ?

[tvtimes]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

after BTs FTTC/H the local loops will be very similiar to VMs in terms of amount of fibre, and there has been indications VM will keep STM on docsis3 but we will see.

What would the need be for keeping STM on docsis3.0 though and where have you heard this from?

The only reason shaping takes place now is because there are too many like minded inviduals eating up vm's bandwith and affecting other peoples speeds who don't use up their connection as much. But with DOCSIS3.0 there will be bandwith contraints so should be no reason for shaping?

[Chrysalis]

I have heard it on this very forum. The need is obvious that is to allow them to oversell for greater profit.

I want to make something clear on my view on the STM, its in place as a substitute for network capacity, the scapegoats who you are blaming are the heavier users but they are innocent, VM sell a unlimited use product so noone is breaking the terms and conditions and the only guilty party in reference to the STM is VM.

[tvtimes]

So you haven't actually heard this from VM then? Just checking that's all. If it's just from here it's a rumour and there is no proof either way. I don't understand the need to stm once a lot of the badnwith is freed up. They may well decide to keep stm in place to keep the BPI happy though and show they are combatting piracy. I don't think 50meg will be stm'd some how. It will be a premium product with a premium price tag! If they started stm'ming on that then all hell would break loose.

[Downloads]

Originally Posted by Stuart C

No insult was intended, but you are very quick to criticise VM, and very slow to mention the possibility that other ISPs also have problems.

You are quite correct, i've come back after a year off this forum and i can still read tonnes of negative things about VM and not have a balanced opinion (by a lot of the same people).

That does mean there is an agenda.

Originally Posted by Stuart C

No insult was intended, but you are very quick to criticise VM, and very slow to mention the possibility that other ISPs also have problems.

My statement about Cable not being distance limited, and ADSL being distance limited isn't opinion. It is fact.

Copper (as used in Phone lines) *does* have an effect on speeds. Over miles (unless the cable is specifically designed for high bandwidth signals, as VM's network is). This is why the cable network backbone is fibre, and copper runs are relatively short (as you note, less than 200 metres)

Basically, the problem as I understand it is signal loss. Now, I know that there are networks that use miles of copper for high bandwidth applications, but these use specially designed cable , and use various techniques to minimise signal loss. This techniques are not practical to use on BT's network.

BT's phone network was not originally designed for data transfer, hence the fact there can be miles of cable between the user and the exchange, which is what slows data transfer.

Not that I am defending VM's publicity. While it doesn't explicitly state that the entire network is fibre (the ASA would leap on them if it did), it does very strongly imply that, which is wrong.

Stuart, copper is copper, whether it is used for miles or less than 100 metres it still has a detrimental effect if you believe vm's a BS, or are we to believe that the copper from the coax into the modem is some kind of special copper sourced from vm mines?
I am quick to criticise VM because I pay them a lot of money, so if I think what they are saying is BS I will say it, and it is not a matter of any agenda, im paying for a product I will have my say no matter who disagrees with it.
VM say copper used in BT telephone lines is not ideal for data transfer, what they forget to realise is that the last bit of wire going into the modem contains a six letter word, ------ whether it is miles, as you put it, or 100m makes not a tuppence of difference, sadly VM think we are all idiots.

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

Stuart, copper is copper, whether it is used for miles or less than 100 metres it still has a detrimental effect if you believe vm's a BS, or are we to believe that the copper from the coax into the modem is some kind of special copper sourced from vm mines?
I am quick to criticise VM because I pay them a lot of money, so if I think what they are saying is BS I will say it, and it is not a matter of any agenda, im paying for a product I will have my say no matter who disagrees with it.
VM say copper used in BT telephone lines is not ideal for data transfer, what they forget to realise is that the last bit of wire going into the modem contains a six letter word, ------ whether it is miles, as you put it, or 100m makes not a tuppence of difference, sadly VM think we are all idiots.

There is a difference between copper single core wire & coaxial cable using copper for the core and shield...

Originally Posted by homealone

There is a difference between copper single core wire & coaxial cable using copper for the core and shield...

Thanks for that
But would we agree that copper is copper?

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

Thanks for that
But would we agree that copper is copper?

yes, but how you arrange it is the key, try running network cables with & without twisting the pairs, both configurations involve copper, but only one will work over a certain distance..

Originally Posted by homealone

yes, but how you arrange it is the key, try running network cables with & without twisting the pairs, both configurations involve copper, but only one will work over a certain distance..

I appreciate what you say, thing is vm make copper out to be the devil incarnate, forgetting for the sake of drawing in customers that their own broadband network uses copper,all I am doing is showing the vm BS for what it is,but I appreciate and agree with what you say.

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

I appreciate what you say, thing is vm make copper out to be the devil incarnate, forgetting for the sake of drawing in customers that their own broadband network uses copper,all I am doing is showing the vm BS for what it is,but I appreciate and agree with what you say.

ok, cool, I'd call it marketing, rather than BS, but I agree they are trying to 'big up' the idea that they use fibre optic cable for some of the network, while keeping quiet about the fact is isn't to the home...

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by homealone

ok, cool, I'd call it marketing, rather than BS, but I agree they are trying to 'big up' the idea that they use fibre optic cable for some of the network, while keeping quiet about the fact is isn't to the home...

Cableco's in the US have jumped on this bandwagon too, specifically since Verizon started rolling out fibre to the home en masse, so it's not a Virgin specific thing anymore though they were the first!

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/W...d-You-Do-97296

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

Cableco's in the US have jumped on this bandwagon too, specifically since Verizon started rolling out fibre to the home en masse, so it's not a Virgin specific thing anymore though they were the first!

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/W...d-You-Do-97296

bloomin' marketeers, it always sounds good in the meeting, because they don't invite anyone who would be critical..

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by homealone

bloomin' marketeers, it always sounds good in the meeting, because they don't invite anyone who would be critical..

Dollar / pound signs soon take precedence over legitimate criticism in business.

---------- Post added at 22:28 ---------- Previous post was at 22:26 ----------

Originally Posted by tvtimes

What would the need be for keeping STM on docsis3.0 though and where have you heard this from?

The only reason shaping takes place now is because there are too many like minded inviduals eating up vm's bandwith and affecting other peoples speeds who don't use up their connection as much. But with DOCSIS3.0 there will be bandwith contraints so should be no reason for shaping?

You are right, with DOCSIS 3 there will still be bandwidth constraints, the modems have 4 tuners so draw on a bandwidth pool of about 200Mbit. Initially of course the uptake will be far too low for this to be 'an issue' however potentially it could become an issue.

Whether it will or not we'll see but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. The kind of people who are likely to take this service may hammer the living hell out of the service and soon chalk up some nice bandwidth bills for VM and eat the local network alive.

EDIT: Assuming a nominal max throughput of 6MB/sec, 48Mbit/s which is reasonable taking account of overheads, someone could download 15.5TB/month on the 50Mbit service. That would really be quite unpleasant for Virgin and is far from impossible considering the availability of Blu Ray / HD content ripe for downloading, burning, and selling from a plastic sheet in the high street.

We'll see!

Originally Posted by homealone

ok, cool, I'd call it marketing, rather than BS, but I agree they are trying to 'big up' the idea that they use fibre optic cable for some of the network, while keeping quiet about the fact is isn't to the home...

Maybe they've been looking here?

http://www.fresh-inc.com/********.htm

[Downloads]

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

Thanks for that
But would we agree that copper is copper?

I'm sorry but what you are saying is just plain rediculous.

You know what they are refering to but you are just trying to pick holes in it. They aren't going to give a specification with each statement they make.

You know only full well that they are talking about but you are trying to pull apart what they say when no one on this board disagrees with facts, just so you can state the blindingly obvious. VM never said they had fibre to the home, no one on here thinks they do, so why do you feel the need to say it?

What they do though (although without going into great details to placate someone like you) is make general statements about a network full of copper and just because they do this, it doesn't mean they are saying we don't have any copper in our network as much as you want to read that into it.