Last Round on the Underground

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by danielf

Cheers. So basically there was no actual need for the ban that caused last night's disruption?

There are plenty of thing more worthy of a ban on the underground, like the smell of BO, the fact you pay the earth and can't get a seat, the fact you have to spend the majority of journeys looking at some ones armpit etc etc Nice one Boris, give the public what they want

[Vlad_Dracul]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

What arrant nonsense you spout at times...Whether I'm drinking alcohol sitting outside a pub,on a train,in the street or in my own garden I do not belch or inflict my raucous behaviour on others...So why the hell should I stop drinking in those venues or be prevented from doing so because others have no self control.

I'm thoroughly sick of freedoms being slowly eroded because people like you tar everyone with the same brush.

I suspect we are on the same side here but nevertheless,closer examination is warranted.

Now then Incognitas, if you were on the London tube or on a public bus,would you swig alcohol from a can or a bottle? Please give reasons either way.

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul

I suspect we are on the same side here but nevertheless,closer examination is warranted.

Now then Incognitas, if you were on the London tube or on a public bus,would you swig alcohol from a can or a bottle? Please give reasons either way.

Because I was thirsty and I wanted to.What other reasons would there be?

My point isn't necessarily about drinking on the underground.It's the very gradual erosion of legal rights by the back door method of just banning things WITHOUT any real mandate from the public as a whole.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

So why the hell should I stop drinking in those venues or be prevented from doing so because others have no self control.

I can safely navigate country lanes I know like the back of my hand at 70mph, so why should I be prevented from doing so because others have insufficient vehicular control?

Bloke I knew only did cocaine in small doses, never hurt anyone, so why should he be prevented from doing so because others have no self control?

Question coggy, should those with no self control who drank on the tube be stopped from drinking, or were you quite happy for people with no self control to get blotto on the tube while on the way to a night out?

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

I can safely navigate country lanes I know like the back of my hand at 70mph, so why should I be prevented from doing so because others have insufficient vehicular control?

Bloke I knew only did cocaine in small doses, never hurt anyone, so why should he be prevented from doing so because others have no self control?

Question coggy, should those with no self control who drank on the tube be stopped from drinking, or were you quite happy for people with no self control to get blotto on the tube while on the way to a night out?

That's a nice collection of straw men you've got there. The issue seems to be that there wasn't really a problem with people drinking on the Tube in the first place (until last Saturday that is). So why bring in a ban on something that isn't a problem in the first place?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by danielf

That's a nice collection of straw men you've got there. The issue seems to be that there wasn't really a problem with people drinking on the Tube in the first place (until last Saturday that is). So why bring in a ban on something that isn't a problem in the first place?

Maybe for day time commuters, but after dark I've witnessed lots of louts drinking and being disruptive while travelling on the tube.
So, should they be stopped from drinking on the tube, or are you happy for them to carry on?
Is it ok for someone to be drunk and disorderly on the tube?
Is it ok for someone who is drunk and disorderly on the tube to get more drunk while on the tube?
Is it ok for someone who isn't quite drunk to become drunk while on the tube?

[Vlad_Dracul]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Because I was thirsty and I wanted to.What other reasons would there be?

My point isn't necessarily about drinking on the underground.It's the very gradual erosion of legal rights by the back door method of just banning things WITHOUT any real mandate from the public as a whole.

Its unfortunate but,without putting my rose tinted specs on,there was a time when there was a much more rigourous moral code in this country. It was unspoken but most people knew the rules off by heart.

For example..

People would not spit or vomit in public unless they were ill or afflicted

People would not smoke weed on the bus

People might give up their seat for an older person or a lady

Peole might hold a door open for you to pass through behind them rather than let it slam in your face

People would say excuse me or sorry if they bashed into you whilst passing

The list is endless....

And so it is that at the same time,the only person you might see drinking in public would be what we used to call a tramp (now ostensibly a homeless person) or a hopeless wino.

The moral code of which i speak has been depleted and no longer exists in the same form or to the same degree.

That is why behaviours have to be formalised with regulations. We cannot assume that what is not expressly forbidden by law is therefore permissable.

You speak of a mandate. The mandate was granted to the present Government at the general election. We gave them leave to run the country and to make law as necessary.

I would bet a months wages that if a national referendum were carried out as to whether people wished to restrict the sale and public use of alcohol,it would receive a resounding yes vote. The country is crying out for it.

That is not to say that those who enjoy a drink cannot continue. It just has to be enjoyed in the right and proper circumstances. I too enjoy the odd drink and a bit of socialising but i would never dream of swigging it in an unlicenced public place because i have some level of respect for my fellow man.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

I can safely navigate country lanes I know like the back of my hand at 70mph, so why should I be prevented from doing so because others have insufficient vehicular control?

Bloke I knew only did cocaine in small doses, never hurt anyone, so why should he be prevented from doing so because others have no self control?

Question coggy, should those with no self control who drank on the tube be stopped from drinking, or were you quite happy for people with no self control to get blotto on the tube while on the way to a night out?

My main objection is that what is LEGAL is slowly being banned WITHOUT any input or discussion from the majority.

When it becomes illegal IN LAW then fine I can accept it.But when it's done by the back door no.

And then even when it's done by law if it erodes basic freedoms I'm still going to complain..Oh and the 70mph and cocaine issues you raised,that is actually illegal already.

---------- Post added at 09:16 ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 ----------

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul

Its unfortunate but,without putting my rose tinted specs on,there was a time when there was a much more rigourous moral code in this country. It was unspoken but most people knew the rules off by heart.

For example..

People would not spit or vomit in public unless they were ill or afflicted

People would not smoke weed on the bus

People might give up their seat for an older person or a lady

Peole might hold a door open for you to pass through behind them rather than let it slam in your face

People would say excuse me or sorry if they bashed into you whilst passing

The list is endless....

And so it is that at the same time,the only person you might see drinking in public would be what we used to call a tramp (now ostensibly a homeless person) or a hopeless wino.

The moral code of which i speak has been depleted and no longer exists in the same form or to the same degree.

That is why behaviours have to be formalised with regulations. We cannot assume that what is not expressly forbidden by law is therefore permissable.

You speak of a mandate. The mandate was granted to the present Government at the general election. We gave them leave to run the country and to make law as necessary.

I would bet a months wages that if a national referendum were carried out as to whether people wished to restrict the sale and public use of alcohol,it would receive a resounding yes vote. The country is crying out for it.

That is not to say that those who enjoy a drink cannot continue. It just has to be enjoyed in the right and proper circumstances. I too enjoy the odd drink and a bit of socialising but i would never dream of swigging it in an unlicenced public place because i have some level of respect for my fellow man.

Well most of what you are talking about is illegal and I have no objections to anyone bringing it to the attention of the police...Ever done that?

As far as I know drinking alcohol in moderation in public is still not illegal.On Buses,trains(It's even sold on the buffet cars and refreshment trolleys)planes you are allowed to drink.Now being drunk and disorderly IS illegal and getting arrested is fine,smoking weed is illegal and getting arrested is fine...Did you ever complain to the police about someone in that state?

What so many of you are failing to realise what I am actually complaining about is this and this WILL be the last time I state it.

That ordinary law abiding citizens are having their legal rights eroded one by one by local councils just banning certain legal activities because they want to moderate the few when there are perfectly legal methods to tackle them.

Take individuals to court and let the process of the law deal with them.OR pass a law that makes drinking in public places illegal.Don't target EVERYONE will nilly.
But no banning anything please..do it in law.

Which is what they have done with tobacco by the way...I can see the time coming when alcohol gets the same treatment especially as they are now calling for ads for alcohol being banned which was one of the stages to dealing with tobacco but I digress.

Then I guess us fat people will be targeted and eating in public places will be banned.

---------- Post added at 09:18 ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 ----------

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Maybe for day time commuters, but after dark I've witnessed lots of louts drinking and being disruptive while travelling on the tube.
So, should they be stopped from drinking on the tube, or are you happy for them to carry on?
Is it ok for someone to be drunk and disorderly on the tube?
Is it ok for someone who is drunk and disorderly on the tube to get more drunk while on the tube?
Is it ok for someone who isn't quite drunk to become drunk while on the tube?

Being drunk and disorderly is already a crime...But drinking and still being sober is not.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Oh and the 70mph and cocaine issues you raised,that is actually illegal already

They weren't always Incog, until someone said "Hang on, a minority of people have no self control, best make some rules up to prevent it and protect the majority"
So is the illegallity of doing 70mph in a 60mph zone, or the illegality of drugs wrong? Should they have said "Oh well, it's only a few people who have no self control, best not affect the majority" then?

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Being drunk and disorderly is already a crime...But drinking and still being sober is not.

So are you happy for people to be able to become drunk and disorderly through drinking on the tube or should they be prevented from that?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

So are you happy for people to be able to become drunk and disorderly through drinking on the tube or should they be prevented from that?

Xaccers, by your logic (I am assuming you are saying we should ban it to prevent people becoming drunk and disorderly) we should ban drinking in pubs too, and nightclubs (I have seen plenty of people getting drunk and disorderly in both). Or are those places ok?

Why not ban drinking full stop??

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Xaccers, by your logic (I am assuming you are saying we should ban it to prevent people becoming drunk and disorderly) we should ban drinking in pubs too, and nightclubs (I have seen plenty of people getting drunk and disorderly in both). Or are those places ok?

Why not ban drinking full stop??

Fine by me, but some people might object

I'm sure you can tell the difference between a transportation system and a recreational establishment.
The moving trains and live rails of the tube may go some way to help you tell the difference.

Incidently, in pubs, members of staff should prevent people from becoming drunk (if memory serves it's actually illegal to be drunk in a pub).

Are you objecting to people being prevented from becoming drunk and disorderly in a public place?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Fine by me, but some people might object

I'm sure you can tell the difference between a transportation system and a recreational establishment.
The moving trains and live rails of the tube may go some way to help you tell the difference.

Incidently, in pubs, members of staff should prevent people from becoming drunk (if memory serves it's actually illegal to be drunk in a pub).

Are you objecting to people being prevented from becoming drunk and disorderly in a public place?

I'd rather have a police presence on the tube to arrest drunks. I dont drink, but I dont see why alcohol(or anything else) needs to be banned as a premptve strike as such.... where will it all stop? Dont get me wrong, i wouldnt mind seeing a total ban, im all for anything resembling an islamic state lololol.....

I heard something about pointed kitchen knives being banned as the point serves no purpose and its used for stabbing? lets ban cars from the public roads too because of all the irresponsible drivers who are a danger to other road users and the public.

You personally drive, shall we ban cars off the road because of all the accidents caused?

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Xaccers, by your logic (I am assuming you are saying we should ban it to prevent people becoming drunk and disorderly) we should ban drinking in pubs too, and nightclubs (I have seen plenty of people getting drunk and disorderly in both). Or are those places ok?

Why not ban drinking full stop??

You made my point for me...Except I want it done by the government and through the law courts NOT by regulations set up by councils.If I'm going to lose my freedoms I want it as official as it should be...So I and others can vote the bummers out at the next election.

[Vlad_Dracul]

Partially in response to Incog....I appreciate your point of view. Of course making laws and enforcing them are two different matters. There are lots of laws which are not enforced. Sometimes this is due to manpower shortages,economic or political reasons or that the crime is not detected.

You ask if i report stuff. Well yes i do. But the thin blue line is very thin and low priority stuff often gets a delayed or no response.

Last year i wrote to the General Manager of Stagecoach buses to make enquiries about my enforced inhalation of illegal narcotics on his vehicles. His response was that whilst he appreciated my predicament,enforcement was down to his driver. Thats the guy whos sat all on his own with a bus to drive and tickets to sell. So thats not going to happen and i dont blame him.

Effectively,and for the most part,if you make a 999 call in this country you will only get an immediate response if there is a clear and present danger to life and property.

Are the alcohol consumtion bans criminal law or local authority byelaw? Who will enforce them? Some poor conductor or ticket collector who will receive a broken jaw for his impertinence?

As i say, far better that these things were handled by the common moral code...but then we don't have one any more.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

I'd rather have a police presence on the tube to arrest drunks. I dont drink, but I dont see why alcohol(or anything else) needs to be banned as a premptve strike as such.... where will it all stop? Dont get me wrong, i wouldnt mind seeing a total ban, im all for anything resembling an islamic state lololol.....

Surely it's more efficient to let people know that the tube is not somewhere to get drunk and give staff the authority to deal with sober people before they get intoxicated?
If someone is on the tube and then gets drunk, isn't it too late then?
Prevention is better than treatment.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

I heard something about pointed kitchen knives being banned as the point serves no purpose and its used for stabbing? lets ban cars from the public roads too because of all the irresponsible drivers who are a danger to other road users and the public.

You personally drive, shall we ban cars off the road because of all the accidents caused?

People are aware of the risks with driving, most people I know (and many participants of this thread judging by the "but there's not a drinking problem on the tube" type posts) don't expect to come across drunks on the tube, after all, why should they? It's not a pub, it's a transportation system which has dangers such as those pesky trains and their live rails.
A friend of mine worked for Silverlink many moons ago, and she recounted an incident where a young man had been drinking on the last train and got off at the wrong station. Staggering around disorientated, he met the live rail and ended up dead.

Incidently, on the roads legislation has been brought in to reduce the risk of injury, such as local councils using their power (rather than parliment voting for it) to impliment 20mph areas. Wonder if Incog objects to that too as it wasn't parliment?

---------- Post added at 00:24 ---------- Previous post was at 00:21 ----------

Originally Posted by Incognitas

You made my point for me...Except I want it done by the government and through the law courts NOT by regulations set up by councils.If I'm going to lose my freedoms I want it as official as it should be...So I and others can vote the bummers out at the next election.

You mean following legal process and using the powers given to them by government then?
So you're objecting because council use powers given to them as decided by parliment rather than parliment deciding to do the same thing when they represent the majority of people who don't live in London? O-K....

Anyway, are you happy for people to be able to become drunk and disorderly through drinking on the tube or should they be prevented from that?