Leaving Virgin ?

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by darthlinux

I dont see why people are so up in air about phorm as slow coach said there are companies that collect your informatoion already its market research I bet the people who are kicking off regarding phorm dont even know how Phorm works and just jumping on the band wagon its gonna be either a opt in or opt out if you guys know so much make sure u opt out all ISP will do this soon

Applications 'phoning home', search engine tracking and "market research" have virtually nothing in common with Phorm, except they all compromise the user's privacy to some extent.

If you'd kept up with the Phorm technical discussions you'd know that we're eagerly awaiting details of how Phorm's opt-in/out will work without either profiling someone who's opted out or relying on a cookie (which has been ruled out by European privacy guidelines).

And a very large part of the determination to defeat Phorm is precisely to prevent other ISPs from considering this or other ad-laden, wiretapping schemes.

Maybe the guys who'd rather leave VM than accept Phorm know a little more about it than you do?

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by darthlinux

I dont see why people are so up in air about phorm as slow coach said there are companies that collect your informatoion already its market research I bet the people who are kicking off regarding phorm dont even know how Phorm works and just jumping on the band wagon its gonna be either a opt in or opt out if you guys know so much make sure u opt out all ISP will do this soon

Your wrong in o so many ways.

I do know how phorm works. I spent a few days reading the patent application to make sure i did understand it. I have been in the telecommunications industry for the last 16 years and have been involved in the Internet side of that for the last 5 years.

I think i can make a judgement on Phorm and that judgment is that i want no bloody part of it and i certainly do not want to be funding there business from my private click stream or data .

What gives them the right to use my data and sell it.

Tell me this ?

If you Opt Out will the data still be profiled and you will just not receive the adverts.

Why are they not going to use the Opt In method according to the CEO of Phorm "Could it be we would all not Opt In which would make there system useless"

Why do Phorm want to install there servers in the Headends and Pop sites and then refuse VM, BT, CPW any access to them. What have they got to hide by doing that.

If Phorm are ethical why have they been up to no good on the Wiki site and Allegedly attacking a certain website with virus and spyware. In other words you cannot change a leopard's spots

NOT every ISP will sign up with Phorm.



Why is the CEO of Phorm stating this is about to go live, If he is lying about that WHY are VM not jumping all over him and telling him to stop. ??????
And finally i do not want my Internet connection anywhere near 121 media Aka Phorm or there employed Hackers

Anything else you want to have a dig at of those of use that DONT want Phorm ?

Originally Posted by slowcoach

unless you have dark secrets lurking in the closet.

No dark secrets, Just don't agree with the 121 media-Phorm spyware.

[lucevans]

Originally Posted by darthlinux

I dont see why people are so up in air about phorm as slow coach said there are companies that collect your informatoion already its market research I bet the people who are kicking off regarding phorm dont even know how Phorm works and just jumping on the band wagon its gonna be either a opt in or opt out if you guys know so much make sure u opt out all ISP will do this soon

Then let me explain to you why I am so up in air (sic) about Phorm:

Let me first say that whatever technical or legal difficulties this system suffers from, as far as I am concerned, the single most important reason to prevent it's use is simply this: it is morally wrong. To spy on people against their wishes, who have committed no offence, is just plain wrong whatever the reason, and particularly if it is for someone else's profit. Before you say "you can opt out": No, you can't. You can opt out of receiving targeted advertisements, but you can't be certain that doing so also prevents the interception and analysis of your clickstream data, and in the world of online security, uncertainty is no better than knowing that your computer has been compromised.

Having read and understood Richard Clayton's technical paper on Phorm's OIX system, I have concluded that it represents a new level of intrusion that no currently-employed system comes even close to in terms of it's obnoxiousness or ubiquity. The point is this; with all the other data mining systems currently out there it is perfectly possible to avoid them or defeat them if they are server-based (such as google's tracking system), or avoid installing them if they are client-side (e.g. spyware code that piggybacks on "free" downloaded software).
If your ISP hardwires the system into your physical connection to the internet, you have no control over it's functionality and no means by which to remove it or bypass it.
There is also a significant question over trust: not all organisations are equal when it comes to trusting them with your personal data.
Given Phorm's spyware history, I'm far less inclined to trust them with my clickstream data than I would a large, well-known company that has a history of producing software that people actually want and find useful in their everyday lives (Google). A real world analogy: given the choice, would you rather have your salary paid into a NatWest bank account, or a Bank of Zimbabwe account?
I only have Phorm's word for it that their systems are secure and cannot be exploited to harvest more from my data stream than randomised advertising category data. As I'm sure you are aware, deep packet inspection software is highly configurable, and can be used to analyse data in almost unlimited ways. I don't believe Phorm's assurances.
Finally, there is the performance hit that people who understand network design better than you or I are predicting if this system is rolled out. The mutliple redirects which will be triggered for every port 80 GET request will put further strain on Virgin Media'a already oversubscribed infrastructure, and what will happen to our internet connection if the Phorm system falls over?

---------- Post added at 11:55 ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 ----------

Originally Posted by slowcoach

unless you have dark secrets lurking in the closet.

That's what RIPA and warrants are for: the ability to track the online activities of lawbreakers has been available to the authorities for years, and Phorm is not related to anything so worthy: it about destroying peoples' privacy in the pursuit of profit , not justice .

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by lucevans

Then let me explain to you why I am so up in air (sic) about Phorm:

Let me first say that whatever technical or legal difficulties this system suffers from, as far as I am concerned, the single most important reason to prevent it's use is simply this: it is morally wrong. To spy on people against their wishes, who have committed no offence, is just plain wrong whatever the reason, and particularly if it is for someone else's profit. Before you say "you can opt out": No, you can't. You can opt out of receiving targeted advertisements, but you can't be certain that doing so also prevents the interception and analysis of your clickstream data, and in the world of online security, uncertainty is no better than knowing that your computer has been compromised.

Having read and understood Richard Clayton's technical paper on Phorm's OIX system, I have concluded that it represents a new level of intrusion that no currently-employed system comes even close to in terms of it's obnoxiousness or ubiquity. The point is this; with all the other data mining systems currently out there it is perfectly possible to avoid them or defeat them if they are server-based (such as google's tracking system), or avoid installing them if they are client-side (e.g. spyware code that piggybacks on "free" downloaded software).
If your ISP hardwires the system into your physical connection to the internet, you have no control over it's functionality and no means by which to remove it or bypass it.
There is also a significant question over trust: not all organisations are equal when it comes to trusting them with your personal data.
Given Phorm's spyware history, I'm far less inclined to trust them with my clickstream data than I would a large, well-known company that has a history of producing software that people actually want and find useful in their everyday lives (Google). A real world analogy: given the choice, would you rather have your salary paid into a NatWest bank account, or a Bank of Zimbabwe account?
I only have Phorm's word for it that their systems are secure and cannot be exploited to harvest more from my data stream than randomised advertising category data. As I'm sure you are aware, deep packet inspection software is highly configurable, and can be used to analyse data in almost unlimited ways. I don't believe Phorm's assurances.
Finally, there is the performance hit that people who understand network design better than you or I are predicting if this system is rolled out. The mutliple redirects which will be triggered for every port 80 GET request will put further strain on Virgin Media'a already oversubscribed infrastructure, and what will happen to our internet connection if the Phorm system falls over?

---------- Post added at 11:55 ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 ----------



That's what RIPA and warrants are for: the ability to track the online activities of lawbreakers has been available to the authorities for years, and Phorm is not related to anything so worthy: it about destroying peoples' privacy for profit, not justice.

Why do those that seem to like Phorm always say " what have you got to hide, What dark secrets do you have."

[frogstamper]

No I'm staying, there are things I don't like about VM, but I do like my 20mb BB, always over 18mb, also VOD which can only get even better. Ive been stung before with the "grass being greener", until you get there!!. So I'm staying put for now.

[slowcoach]

We don’t know what information is being collected by any of the companies who go in for data mining but, it appears to me, people are happy to have their data collected provided they receive a tangible benefit in return.
The fact that we don’t know what happens to that data once collected rules out assuming if a company is good or bad, the fact is we do not know who is good and who is bad, however, from past history we can safely assume that the Banks and Microsoft will not have any qualms about supplying our data to anyone, whatever their agenda, willing to pay the price.

The data mining companies usually say that they are collecting our information in order to provide improvements to their products and services when in reality it is just a means of gaining more revenue, as if they haven’t enough money already.

I won’t bring up Information is Power, as we all know that these plutocrats are all proven megalomaniacs.

The fact that the Data Protection Act allows for the mining and selling of third party data just shows how deep the corruption runs, no doubt the Government is one of the biggest culprits seeing as they store more of our details than anyone else.

Just for the record, I am against any company or individual who steal my data, at the least they are devious but more likely they are totally corrupt.

[lucevans]

Originally Posted by slowcoach

We don’t know what information is being collected by any of the companies who go in for data mining but, it appears to me, people are happy to have their data collected provided they receive a tangible benefit in return.
The fact that we don’t know what happens to that data once collected rules out assuming if a company is good or bad, the fact is we do not know who is good and who is bad, however, from past history we can safely assume that the Banks and Microsoft will not have any qualms about supplying our data to anyone, whatever their agenda, willing to pay the price.

The data mining companies usually say that they are collecting our information in order to provide improvements to their products and services when in reality it is just a means of gaining more revenue, as if they haven’t enough money already.

I won’t bring up Information is Power, as we all know that these plutocrats are all proven megalomaniacs.

The fact that the Data Protection Act allows for the mining and selling of third party data just shows how deep the corruption runs, no doubt the Government is one of the biggest culprits seeing as they store more of our details than anyone else.

Just for the record, I am against any company or individual who steal my data, at the least they are devious but more likely they are totally corrupt.

Not everyone is happy to be data mined - me for one. That's why I try to minimize my everyday exposure to such systems, like not having any "loyalty" cards and always ticking the box that says "you may not use my information for marketing purposes or pass them on to third parties". I may or may not be in a minority...I refer you to your own Mark Twain quotation!

I don't agree with your assertion that we can't tell good companies from bad: whilst a previously-thought good company may be revealed to have done something naughty from time to time, it is certainly possible to blacklist "bad" companies for past misdemeanors (Phorm, formerly know as 121 Media, for example).

My own security rule of thumb is "once a crook, always a crook" so I operate a one strike rule with companies I choose to do business with - i.e. if they have ever done anything I consider unacceptable, they've burnt their bridges as far as my custom is concerned.

The Data Protection Act also gives the data subject (you) ultimate control over the mining and selling of your data by giving you the authority to issue the data controller of a company a DPA Notice, specifying how that company may and may not process your data. If you don't want them to sell it to third parties, the Act gives you the legal authority to insist that they do not. Failure to comply will ultimately result in heavy fines, thus totally negating the financial gain to them of selling your data in the first place.

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by slowcoach

Just for the record, I am against any company or individual who steal my data, at the least they are devious but more likely they are totally corrupt.

In that case, I suspect an imposter has been posting in your name:

Originally Posted by slowcoach

Our on-line activities are already well known by many companies so it is a little late to start worrying now, unless you have dark secrets lurking in the closet.

Could you cite some sources for your claims concerning MicroShaft, banks and 'data miners' who can access and deal in our browsing history as Phorm hope to?

As people seem unhappy if VM do bring Phorm in why dont you just Opt out because if u hate phorm you will need to have BT Line which are using Phorm anyways, so I am thinking you will get rid of VM because you dont want to fund phorm but you will end up someway funding phorm as you will use a BT line

[kt88man]

Originally Posted by darthlinux

As people seem unhappy if VM do bring Phorm in why dont you just Opt out because if u hate phorm you will need to have BT Line which are using Phorm anyways, so I am thinking you will get rid of VM because you dont want to fund phorm but you will end up someway funding phorm as you will use a BT line

LLU

[webcrawler2050]

The real question, I ask, is "Opt Out" truly opt out as the name suggests. Personally I dont think it is. I also believe our government has something to do with Phorm, it would make sense, especially with the illegal downloads etc.

Personally, if this is implemented, it will cripple VM as a business. People will leave in the flock fulls.


As this link says: http://www.webwise.com/privacy/can-choose-NA.html

You can choose, I think its complete and utter rubbish. SOmething isnt right here and we should all stand up for it. Its about time, ths country stopped trying to control its people to the point where we hae no freedom, whats next, monitoring when you go to the loo?

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by darthlinux

As people seem unhappy if VM do bring Phorm in why dont you just Opt out because if u hate phorm you will need to have BT Line which are using Phorm anyways, so I am thinking you will get rid of VM because you dont want to fund phorm but you will end up someway funding phorm as you will use a BT line

BT line but using BE Unlimited LLU, Pray tell how that involves Phorm. You go on about users getting worked up over something they nothing about as you say. I suggest you read up on it yourself.

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by Sirius

BT line but using BE Unlimited LLU, Pray tell how that involves Phorm. You go on about users getting worked up over something they nothing about as you say. I suggest you read up on it yourself.

Thank you, Sirius.
You put that *far* more politely than I could have.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by ceedee

Thank you, Sirius.
You put that *far* more politely than I could have.

All I am is saying VM havent started using Phorm yet and even if they do you have a choice to either opt out or opt in I dont like the idea of Phorm hence why I will just make sure I am opted out of the system comapnies bring new ideas in all the time and will always not be able to please everyone, all I am trying to really say is if you can get around it then why are you worried and as for all ur worries if Phorm where that made i.e stealing personal information the ISP that wanna use it wouldnt be as it would be illegal, I am trying to say I am sticking up for phorm I am just seeing from a netural point of view