Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[Bonglet]

I'd like to know where they got there customer research from lol

To summarise, our customer research shows that lots of people would be keen to see advertisements that are relevant to their interests, we are planning to trial the service shortly, BT customers may be invited to participate in the trial (via a webpage) but the choice as to whether or not they participate is entirely theirs.

must have been phorm employees they researched as no one in there right mind wants there time intterupted with pointless drivel even if you have been searching for it a certain mr davies was all over google when they implemented this into there searches but its ok for them to do it at hardware level and not be able to block your traffic flowing through there data capture device lmao google and other search engines could have a good case for monopoly as customers using there service get hijacked before the data even reaches that site so mr davies must be ok with it as long as he gets paid which google or other search engines didnt do for him.

So the trail is opt in through a webpage i wonder if the whole 2 shopping addicts sign up for it and give there customer feedback i bet everyone connected to said host will still have there data processed as it goes through the same switch still illegal in my eyes ;(

[amateria]

Sorry to be a bit slow, but the trial will intercept all data of all users, even if they have "opted out".

Will these trial subjects even be told about the interception?

[popper]

Originally Posted by serial

Hi Guys, over on badphorm we've spotted this which you might find interesting:

http://www.how-do.co.uk/north-west-m...-200804142351/

"Hugo Drayton, the CEO of digital advertising company Phorm, Phorm has initially populated the OIX with data gathered from BT, Virgin and Carphone Warehouse on users’ internet browsing habits."

yes, i posted that link and related urls this morning #3187 , the one that got phorm pic panic, opps...

its interesting that they are bringing out the UK CEO out in manchester to paying clients, at the same time as the london PIA.

the speakers and chair are an odd bunch, in the shadows but making fast progress.... it seems.

[OldBear]

Hi all, first post, but long time reader of this thread. Really appreciate the work you are all doing here to try and stop this disgrace. Alexander, your paper is excellent, sir.

Originally Posted by Ravenheart

Alexander,

That reply from BT looks like it could have been written by Phorm themselves, it's interesting they throw the old Ernst & Young (who assessed it for US law) and Simon Davies into the mix. Do they not realise how things have moved on since those early days?

As usual it's just spin.

And very old spin at that, Ravenheart. I wrote to Ms. Sanderson back on March 17th about this proposed scheme. Originally she told me in her reply (18th March) that:

Webwise privacy standards have been verified by external auditor Ernst & Young, Privacy International has also carried out a Privacy Impact Assessment.

Note the bold part which she later changed in a further reply (20th March) to,

You are right that the leading privacy advocate Simon Davies, MD of 80/20 Thinking, did in fact carry out a Privacy Impact Assessment on Webwise technology. He is also the Director of Privacy International. I did not indicate that Mr Davies had endorsed the product, merely that he had carried out a Privacy Impact Assessment.

This came after I accused her of purposely trying to mislead me with information she knew was not true.

Anyway, to the old spin. Notice what she tells Alexander in her reply above and see if you can spot the similarity to what she told me, below:

No data is passed outside of BT's network and the hardware is owned by BT. Customers choosing not to take part will not have their browsing information mirrored or profiled, and no information will go to the BT managed profiler. No information is gathered, and therefore no information is forwarded to Phorm. Customers who opt out will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment.

and

BT expects to begin technical trials of the BT Webwise service shortly. We will be inviting around 10,000 BT broadband customers to take part in the trial. The trial invitation will be presented through a special web page that will appear when those customers start a web browsing session. At this point, those customers invited can choose to switch on BT Webwise, choose not to take part or to find out more information. Customers choosing not to take part will not have their browsing information mirrored or profiled, and no information will go to the BT managed profiler. No information is gathered, and therefore no information is forwarded to Phorm. Customers who opt out will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment. The www dot bt dot com/webwise site also contains detailed information on the service and a one-click option to switch the service off, which can be activated at any point during the trial. Alternatively customers can block the www dot webwise dot net domain. The BT Privacy Policy and BT Total Broadband Service Terms will be amended accordingly.

Yep folks, it's a straight copy and paste job.

I don't see any help coming from this woman to be honest, or from BT when they even censor their own forum to stop people asking questions.

Disgraceful!!

OB

btw. Both emails are available in full should anyone wish a copy forwarded.

[Winston Smith]

Hi,

Will be sending this to Mr Branson tomorrow via registered mail, but would appreciate comments etc.

April 14, 2008

Sir Richard Branson
Virgin Management Limited
120 Campden Hill Road
London
W8 7AR



Dear Sir Richard,

I am driven to write to you in your capacity as a significant shareholder in the Virgin Media group and more-so one that can help direct its future path as an ethical and responsible company. I write this as we (the customers of this group) have been unsuccessful in achieving a satisfactory response to our concerns from the usual channels (Customer Service etc.). For a number of weeks now there has been a multitude of article and comment pieces on the internet and in traditional media regarding the proposed tie-up between the top three ISP’s and Phorm, a company specialising in targeted advertising.

Whilst, I personally have no objection to advertisements on the internet (after all they support many worthwhile sites, some of which I am member of) what I do object to is the invasion of my privacy that would result from this partnership.
From what I (and many others) understand of the nature of this relationship it would involve Phorm supplied equipment profiling my browsing history, in order to serve me targeted adverts. Again I have no issue with this provided regulatory statutes are met. What I (and many others) do have a problem with is twofold:

Firstly, the proposed system is opt-out – in breach of both UK and European law.

Secondly, even if I opt out my browsing history is still mirrored to the profiler, despite my explicit choice for this not to happen.

One of your competitors (Carphone Warehouse) has already stated that their system will ensure that a customer who has opted will not have their browsing passed to any of this equipment. I trust that the Virgin Group, a company known for its ethics and support for the individual would follow a similar path.

I remain yours sincerely

WinstonS

[CaptJamieHunter]

Originally Posted by serial

Hi Guys, over on badphorm we've spotted this which you might find interesting:

http://www.how-do.co.uk/north-west-m...-200804142351/

"Hugo Drayton, the CEO of digital advertising company Phorm, Phorm has initially populated the OIX with data gathered from BT, Virgin and Carphone Warehouse on users’ internet browsing habits."

That rides a coach and horses through what Ian Woodham (VM's Data Protection Officer) wrote to me, that as of 14th March "No Phorm equipment has been implemented on Virgin Media's network and will not be until we are confident that it is compliant to do so".

This needs clarification. Or else this Jamie will go ballistic.

[davidb24v]

Originally Posted by Pasanonic

Dave, with regard to the statement on how do regarding the population of OIX I have left a message ( in administration right now ) asking them to cite references for this information or for them to amend the post to read correctly.

I am of the opinion that this is not statement of fact but rather a misconception by the author and therefore an erroneous comment.


Craig

Nice one Craig.

I do tend to agree with you. There's enough FUD flying around straight from the horses (well, eleventy PR companies) mouths so no need for any more inaccuracies or meaningless flannel. The PR companies seem to be covering that latter aspect fairly well

Dave

[Pasanonic]

Originally Posted by davidb24v

Just read a couple of the links posted recently.

From here http://www.adotas.com/2008/04/phorm-...consumer-info/ they say:



and yet this link http://www.how-do.co.uk/north-west-m...-200804142351/ says:



Is it me, or are those statements just totally contradictory? You can't "populate" anything with that data which you don't (allegedly) retain surely?

I tend to hope that the second link is just a misunderstanding on the page author's part but given the way this phiasco has unfolded I do wonder.

Phorm are telling whoever they speak to what they think that person/organisation/group wants to hear. Maybe they're planning to stand for election somewhere

Dave

Originally Posted by CaptJamieHunter

That rides a coach and horses through what Ian Woodham (VM's Data Protection Officer) wrote to me, that as of 14th March "No Phorm equipment has been implemented on Virgin Media's network and will not be until we are confident that it is compliant to do so".

This needs clarification. Or else this Jamie will go ballistic.

As I mentioned previously Jamie. I have asked via the comments facility on that website, for clarification of the comments. I expect that the author is not quite as informed as he ought to be over the facts of the data collection and the implementation of OIX.
Speaking of OIX it has been over a week now since I mailed Phorm asking for a complete list of their OIX partners. I've had no response as yet, not even the dismissal I expected.

[MovedGoalPosts]

Just a small thought, how many small shareholders have stakes in BT? Quite a few no doubt. Each therefore has voting rights. I have no idea what is involved, but could these shareholders stir things up a bit at an AGM or EGM by requiring some sort of motion that BT do not use Phorm?

[Portly_Giraffe]

Originally Posted by amateria

I would also like to link, if it's OK Portly Giraffe, to InPhormationDesk.

Please do - though note that Cable Forum messages have a character limit so we will need the RIPA notice shortened if we include the url as well.

Does anyone have an opinion about changing the front page of inphormationdesk to a variant of
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/legislators.htm
and moving the current front page into the site as a Q&A section?

In reply to our learned friend Alexander Hanff...

And hello all, from a BT customer who has been following this issue since February.

Alexander: Amazingly, Emma Sanderson's email to you is almost exactly the same as the email I received from Christine Hutchinson...

Quote:
Many thanks for your letter [to] Jillian Lewis. Please accept my sincere apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

I can confirm that on the 14 Feb BT, Talk Talk and Virgin Media all confirmed that we had entered into agreements with Phorm, enabling us to offer to our customers a new free internet feature called Webwise. Webwise provides an additional level of protection against malicious websites and ensures fewer irrelevant ads. In essence, it’s a safer and more relevant browsing experience. Prior to the announcement BT thoroughly researched Webwise and was encouraged by the very positive consumer response to the service.

Clearly our customer's privacy is extremely important to us. Information on users’ browsing is completely anonymous. The system doesn't store personally identifiable information, doesn't store URLs, IP addresses or retain browsing histories and the raw data used is deleted in real time - by the time the page loads. Webwise does not scan webmail pages so your emails on Gmail, Yahoo mail or Hotmail are not scanned. Secure pages like your banking websites and web forms like any online registration or sign-up forms are not scanned. No personal information often contained in form fields is therefore ever captured by the system. No data is passed outside of BT's network. Webwise privacy standards have been verified by external auditor Ernst & Young and leading privacy advocate Simon Davies, MD of 80/20 Thinking, has also carried out a Privacy Impact Assessment on Webwise technology. Of course BT, and I am sure the same applies to TalkTalk and Virgin Media, have all completed appropriate due diligence on Phorm, we also understand that other ISPs both in and outside of the UK are currently talking to them.

BT is, of course, aware of the legal requirements regarding interception of communications under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. We consider that these steps will meet the legal requirements of RIPA and also ensure that customers are able to take a fully informed decision as to whether to take the service.

BT expects to begin technical trials of the BT Webwise service in the coming weeks. We will be inviting around 10,000 BT broadband customers to take part in the trial. The trial invitation will be presented through a special web page that will appear when those customers start a web browsing session. At this point, those customers invited can choose to switch on BT Webwise, choose not to take part or to find out more information. Customers choosing not to take part will not have their browsing information mirrored or profiled, and no information will go to the BT managed profiler. No information is gathered, and therefore no information is forwarded to Phorm. Customers who opt out will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment. The www.bt.com/webwise site also contains detailed information on the service and a one-click option to switch the service off, which can be activated at any point during the trial. Alternatively customers can block the www.webwise.net domain. The BT Privacy Policy and BT Total Broadband Service Terms will be amended accordingly, we do not consider this a material change. As you may have seen, BT has also confirmed publicly that in parallel with the trial, we are already developing a solution for customers that do not want the service - that removes the need for 'opt-out' cookies altogether.

To summarise, our customer research shows that lots of people would be keen to see advertisements that are relevant to their interests, we are planning to trial the service shortly, BT customers may be invited to participate in the trial (via a webpage) but the choice as to whether or not they participate is entirely theirs. Furthermore BT is committing to providing it's customers with a choice as to whether they want this service or not going forward - it will be optional.

Regards

Christine Hutchinson
Assistant to the Chairman and Chief Executive

Please note the bold text in the email above which I was sent (my added emphasis). I note that your email text did not include this. Are you a BT customer? Or is it that they have just realised customers are wise to the contractual law position, which allows the customer to decide that THEY (the customer) are entitled to determine it IS a material change and thus terminate their agreement without penalty...?

Your email quote Alexander: The BT Privacy Policy and BT Total Broadband Service Terms will be amended accordingly. As you may have seen, BT has also confirmed publicly that in parallel with the trial, we are already developing a solution for customers that do not want the service - that removes the need for 'opt-out' cookies altogether.

I wish I could have been in London for the meeting on Tuesday. I hope to see/hear a recording of it. Or I am sure someone will transcribe. Very eager to see where they propose to go on it now. Nearly every road they turn down gets rough, diverted from or closed off, so I wonder where this will go next (hopefully down one final dead end, but I doubt it, they seem intent on dragging it out for a slow and painful ending)

Hank

[Winston Smith]

Originally Posted by Rob

Just a small thought, how many small shareholders have stakes in BT? Quite a few no doubt. Each therefore has voting rights. I have no idea what is involved, but could these shareholders stir things up a bit at an AGM or EGM by requiring some sort of motion that BT do not use Phorm?

Hadnt thought of that, I have a couple of thousand shares in BT (from the original privatisation and subsequent hive-offs, when my father bought them in the names of everyone in our family). But to be honest I think the big shareholders will look at the figures and go.. 'ooh profit' and ignore us, but it can't hurt to try.

Anyone know when the AGM is? Should be able to submit motions ot the board, well all the other companies I own shares in allow it, of course whether they listen...

[Pasanonic]

Originally Posted by Winston Smith

Hi,

Will be sending this to Mr Branson tomorrow via registered mail, but would appreciate comments etc.

April 14, 2008

Sir Richard Branson
Virgin Management Limited
120 Campden Hill Road
London
W8 7AR



Dear Sir Richard,

/snip

WinstonS

Winston.

I've been meaning to touch on this point since I started reading here. I feel it is again time to point out that even though VM cable and television services operate under the name of Virgin Media they are in fact still NTL Telewest operating under a new leased name. The company bought out a majority share in the mobile division of Virgin and as part of that they obtained a 20 year lease for use of the name and Sir Richard in return obtained a stake in the NTL Telewest company.

I feel that Sir Richard has at times in these forums come under attack for issues which really don't have anything to do with him personally. I agree it is good to bring this matter to his attention as it is often implied that he might be involved in this.

My mother is an acquaintance of Sir Richard and I myself have met him twice. Given that I have his West London home address here I may write to him myself asking if he is aware of this issue and ask for his feelings on the matter but as he is a businessman who has received a holding in NTL as part of a trade I'll not be claiming that he is responsible, but rather that he might want to go on record as he is the highest profile name attached to the Phorm issue by default of NTL using the VM brand name.

I think what I'd like to get across is that the company operating the virginmedia cable services is not a Virgin holding and is still NTL by another name.

regards

Craig.

---------- Post added at 22:35 ---------- Previous post was at 22:33 ----------

Originally Posted by Rob

Just a small thought, how many small shareholders have stakes in BT? Quite a few no doubt. Each therefore has voting rights. I have no idea what is involved, but could these shareholders stir things up a bit at an AGM or EGM by requiring some sort of motion that BT do not use Phorm?

This is indeed an interesting option to pursue. Both my parents are BT stockholders in a small measure and I'll make some enquiries as to the procedure for calling and extraordinary general meeting and see if there are reasons to do so regarding the trials.

[eastbourne]

This is my first posting.
I am not totally clear of all the issues here, however, I would like somebody to answer the following questions if they can please.

1 If my internet usage is to be spied on and information given randomly (this is my gist of the situation) whats to stop phorm from accessing any of my banking or personal details used on line for purchasing etc?

2 I have heard the the US may pull the plug on UK internet providers using Phorm. Will I still be able to access my MSN boards, many of which I use for my hobbies or for health support?
3 Does anybody have a list of broadband providers who will definately not be using phorm?

I may need to get rid of Virgin quite soon

Eastbourne

[OldBear]

Hank, your reply paragraphs 1, 3 & 4 are identical to the first reply I received from (or so I thought) Emma Sanderson.

Only difference is that in yours she changed the bit about re. the PIA to 80/20 instead of Privacy International.