Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Stuart C

I am not making excuses for the goverment, or Northern Rock (who directly or indirectly caused their own problems), but the reason the government did that is that if they hadn't, and Northern Rock had collapsed, it could have caused the collapse of one (or more) of the larger banks (Barclays, Natwest or HSBC). If this had happened, in all likelyhood, our economy would have collapsed . Because, thanks to various factors including high property prices, far too many people are very heavily in debt.



I don't think anyone is stating all benefit claimants are workshy scroungers, but a *lot* of claimants are. When I was on benefits, I spent most of my days looking for work. Similarly, a friend of mine was a student at my Uni. Every day she came in, she'd spend the whole day working on her studies. He (apparently unaware I could see him from where I used to take a break) would wait until she was out of sight, then nip in to the local pub for the day. Yes, they were both on as many grants as a couple with no kids could get, but she worked hard. He didn't work, and when he did get a job, he normally lasted 2-3 days before getting fired.

I am not debating whether the bank bailout was right or wrong but I am not happy they just simply lie to past blame for problems on to a minority vulnerable group of people that are easy targets. The fact remains the so called workshy are actually a very small social cost in comparison to many other things eg. the waste in running the parliament costs more than the entire annual jobseekers allowance budget.

---------- Post added at 00:42 ---------- Previous post was at 00:30 ----------

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Whats stopping people from training up and getting better jobs?.....and if the better paid jobs aren't in the area then commuting to them?

what better jobs?

As for commuting whats reasonable? eg. I think its unreasonable to have to spend an hour or more travelling to work every day. Then the option would be moving house and I guess that depends on the individuals circumstancesm but its all hype that there is plenty of high paid jobs to go round the truth is there isnt the vast majority of jobs in the country are quite far below the average wage and in some areas like mine (lowest unskilled salaries in england according to official stats in 2006) they are very low. Now I am not writing excuses for people who deliberatly dont work but I if I put myself in a position of a person he has to put food on the table and pay for the roof over their head. Many of the job options now days are temp agency works which is an irregular income might be needed for 1-2 days of the week but not the rest but this is enough for state benefits to be stopped so for starters if I was on job seekers allowance I would only give it up for a full time permanent job not temp agency work, then the income would have to be enough to at least cover my essential bills. If I work out the cost of living for a small bedsit in my area + essential bills such as council tax, heating, tv licence, food etc. and assume no social life no going out etc. then the wage needed just for that is about £7.50 an hour. Someone with kids would be ok as massive child tax credits topups and child benefit but someone without kids gets a very small working tax credit topup. So basically I am saying in that situation I would refuse any job that doesnt keep my essential bills paid so nothing less than a full time 7.50 an hour job. If I was still living with my parents and as such had lower living costs then the situation would be different and a min wage job would pay enough. But I think a lot of people have double standards when they expect others to do what they wouldnt. I have heard people say they wouldnt get out of bed for less than £10 an hour never mind £7 an hour or min wage.

Also its all too easy to say things like "lots" of people are workshy or "lots" are defrauding the system when you dont know their circumstances.

---------- Post added at 00:45 ---------- Previous post was at 00:42 ----------

Originally Posted by Jefferson T

I'm using my enforced time off work to re-train so that when I've finished my treatment I can return to work much better qualified.

I don't really care what work I do, I started off as a cleaner in a factory, but while I've got the opportunity to re-train and get that training for free I don't see a problem with doing it.

Am I workshy, probably, but at least I'm doing something about it I guess.

A lot of people (as I've said before) do class me as a scrounger on benefits and some on here have even told me so, although not in public of course

---------- Post added at 17:06 ---------- Previous post was at 17:00 ----------

What I'm trying to say really is that it doesn't matter who I'm up against, if they are better than me I'd expect them to get the job, so it just means I have to work that bit harder to impress at an interview.

Yeah it works both ways whilst I will stickup for the people the media and mps are picking on anyone in that situation should always be looking to improve their prospects and training is one thing that helps.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

...and if the better paid jobs aren't in the area then commuting to them?

Is Norman Tebbit in the house?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

what better jobs?

As for commuting whats reasonable? eg. I think its unreasonable to have to spend an hour or more travelling to work every day.

By commuting an hour to 90 minutes away, and self training gaining qualifications and experience, I've increased my salary by 5 times what it was 10 years ago, and now only 10 minutes from home.

Now I could have sat on my bum and not pushed myself to better jobs, moaned about having a low wage and a dead end job.
Instead I didn't, I looked at my lot, made improvements where needed and reaped the rewards.

Same with my mum who came out of school with 'o' level needlecraft.
She used to do cleaning for IBM and a bit of typing.
Re-trained and now she's doing office work on £20K

Thats great if you can do it xaccers not everyone can and as for training being all you need to better yourself that doesn't always work either.

Before finally giving into the pressure from the jobcentre to go on incap whenever i didn't get a job i applied for i would phone and ask if there was a specific reason or area that had counted against me. I was told that IT quali's were not the best thing for office work and that i should get a business quali preferably an nvq level 2 for basic office work.

I pushed and got on a training scheme and duly passed my level 2 i still didn't get any firther in the search of a job so again i asked to be told i needed to get realistically an nvq level 3 or above for BASIC office work. Again i went off and got my level 3 all this training meant a day for me of 06.30 - 18.30 and put me in a lot of pain to the point of being completely useless to may family 90% percent of the time but i (being selfish) thought it worth it if i got that magic job.

After having level 3 i again went out looking for a job and this time found the main reason (after some assurance i wouldn't repeat it officially) no one would give me a job they all looked at me and as my medical problem is visual felt i wouldn't last in any job. Reality is i am not alone there are many thousands like me out there and no matter what we do no matter how hard we try and no matter how much we perservere we are not going to get anywhere not because we can't but because others decide for us we can't.

When you have been in that situation then i will fully accept your arguments against benefits and while i accept the vast majority of benefit claimants don't have my or similar problems by the time people get their witchhunt it won't matter as no one will be looking or caring who gets dumped on as long as they are a benefit claimant and therefore an automatic drain on society.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

When you have been in that situation then i will fully accept your arguments against benefits and while i accept the vast majority of benefit claimants don't have my or similar problems by the time people get their witchhunt it won't matter as no one will be looking or caring who gets dumped on as long as they are a benefit claimant and therefore an automatic drain on society.

Except you're not understanding my arguments against benefits, as I have none.
I'm all for benefits for people who are actively seeking work, or are unable to work due to situations beyond their control.
For those in positions where they would be worse off in the jobs they are able to do/get than if they stayed on benefits, then the issue isn't those people, it's the system which puts them in that situation.
Bring in a system where you are guarenteed a minimum livable income in a full time role. If there is a specific reason (such as having to look after kids or other family members as a carer) that you can only work part time, or not at all (again such as a full time carer for a disabled family member as an example), then your case should be assessed to ensure it's genuine, and you given benefits up to the minimum livable income.
Basically, the only people who should be penalised are those who genuinely don't want to work and want the state to pay their way. I don't think any sensible person would complain about them having their freeloading lifestyles curtailed.

With them dealt with, it should in theory, free up more funds for those who are actually in need, either by direct funding, or tax cuts.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Basically, the only people who should be penalised are those who genuinely don't want to work and want the state to pay their way. I don't think any sensible person would complain about them having their freeloading lifestyles curtailed.

With them dealt with, it should in theory, free up more funds for those who are actually in need, either by direct funding, or tax cuts.

Unfortunetly that is not how it works in this country and i doubt it ever will.

I have been out of work coming up to 2 and a half months now due to illness...and my health is slowly getting worse in a few ways meaning i cant go back to work, im nearly out of money...and i cant get on dissability, i cant afford to live and pretty soon im going to be royally screwed, yet i see loads of people who just cant be bothered to work having everything paid for them, have HDTVs, nice cars etc and dont have a worry in the world, i find it majorly unfair.

Even people who are not ill in some sort of way find it very hard to climb up the ladder and get somewhere in life, for here instance even a basic minimum wage job requires you to have some sort of qualification or another (just to do very basic work that really needs little skills), suppose answer would be to go to uni get some qualifications and progress yourself, thats fine, if you have the money to do so but when the govt is constantly pushing up fees, tax and the likes, its pretty much impossible. one thing you do find out in the end is companies would rather take people on who have the experience rather than qualifications, but you cant get experience if no one will hire you, and you cant get qualifications if you cant afford to go to uni etc, its a no win situation.

[Xaccers]

Coral Bookies sales assistant, 25 hours a week plus overtime, minimum wage, qualifications required: ability to count.
My house mate pulls full time hours every week (meaning lots of overtime pay).
To say that minimum wage jobs require qualifications is a load of twaddle. Some jokers may ask for qualifications, but then if you don't have them there are loads of jobs around on min wage or above that require no qualifications.
A simple search on the jobcentre web site shows that.

Of those on benefits that I have had the the pleasure and displeasure to know, those who do not use crime (even benefit fraud) do struggle, and they shouldn't as they work damn hard and want what's best for their families, while those who have the nice TV's, annual holidays to Ibiza, decked out cars etc are the ones who supliment their income through criminal activities (and are the ones who are a displeasure to know).
Basically, if you're a decent law abiding member of society and in a low paid job, you'll struggle. If you're a loafer or a criminal, you can live how you like.

Your right xaccers no one objects to the career benefit claimant being made to get work and contribute. My problem is the way it is going and the way the media are reporting it, it won't just be that group that suffer. This government is so knee jerk and so obsessed with public perception that when not if their great benefit crackdown comes it will hit far more deserving then undeserving.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Your right xaccers no one objects to the career benefit claimant being made to get work and contribute. My problem is the way it is going and the way the media are reporting it, it won't just be that group that suffer. This government is so knee jerk and so obsessed with public perception that when not if their great benefit crackdown comes it will hit far more deserving then undeserving.

That's a very good point about this tabloid run government, they'll do whatever they think will make them look good, rather than what is actually effective, and very rarely do the two cross paths.

Now i am not a statistics person as some of you know i am more the shoot em all and sort it out later but is there any figures for cross benefit change. What i mean is are there proper figures for how many people come off say jobseekers and are transferred to incap or some other non employment related benefit. I would imagine they would be very enlightening as to how we have ended up with so many on incap and the like. If those figures do not exist publicly then they should and if those sorts of figures are not gathered then a system change is needed so that we the public have a clearer view of benefit. Also another big plus for that system is that it would be a hell of a lot harder for any government to manipulate benefit for political reasons i mean if they say unemployment is down by 200,000 but new incap claimants is up by 199,000 you don't need to be a brain surgeon.

[Chrysalis]

most people have the impression rising incapacity benefit figures is because people are unemployed and pushed onto a different benefit to make the figures look better.

They ignore things like this.

A growing population.
A stressed population.
A incapable health service.
A overworked population.

In these conditions if you think logically people incapacitated will increase, also bear in mind the benefit system is so inflexible it does not reward people trying out work and then finding it doesnt work out they risk losing all their income.