Multi-booting Linux & XP

[Cobbydaler]

Well, posting from there now, so it was OK. Not really liked network manager in the past but this implementation seems fine...

[Alien]

Originally Posted by xpod

Sounds good.Keeping everything seperate is great but i just dont like seeing people trying linux & possibly getting peeved off just becuse of any needless complexity(unfamiliarity)...not on first outings anyway.

Perhaps, but I have dabbled [briefly] with it in the past, usually when I'd got a new HDD, so was free to just fiddle around with it for a while, before wiping it & using it for Windows &/or general storage. To me, the whole idea of seperate root, swap, & home partitions makes more sense, as I've been doing the same sort of thing with Windows for ages.

Originally Posted by xpod

I know there are people who actually take their Windows drives out(disconnect) when installing Linux on second drives.Then they just use their f12(or similar?) at start up for choosing which drive to actually boot.

If I had a spare drive I might consider it I suppose, but in this instance it's not really practical.

Originally Posted by xpod

It's only awkward when it's not familiar m8.(more understatements eh)
Your just used of doing things a certain way,with certain terms.
If you ever find yourself having "used" linux for anywhere near as long as you've used Windows(?) then i'm sure those hd0's & sda's will be just as easy to understand as those familair ole C's & 'Ds.

So I've got to wait 10 years before Linux makes sense?

Originally Posted by xpod

You could always install KDE once your up & running if you want but either way never be put off by looks.Any Linux can be made to look any way you want really.

I know I could put KDE on afterwards, it's just that whilst messing about with the Kubuntu Live CD, it seemed somewhat unstable, compared to Gnome & XP.

Originally Posted by dragon

Its actually very logical when I think about it, makes the windows way of doing things seem silly.

I do see your point, & agree, to an extent, it's just that they use 2 different systems [*da1, & hd0] & don't bother to explain the difference. Based on logic & experience I guessed what it probably meant, but that's my whole point: I shouldn't have to guess. Would it kill them to add tooltips, a "help on this view/window" button, or just some text at the bottom of the window? I know there's a bunch of things that are less than perfect in Windows/Windows software, but that doesn't mean designers of Linux GUIs should automatically dismiss some of the ways of doing things that are well established in Windows GUIs.

I know there are still some "hardcore" Linux users who prefer to do as much as possible with the command line interface, but for distros that are aiming for mass appeal [*buntu], especially if they want to win over more Windows users, they need to do a lot more work on the user-friendliness side of things.

Originally Posted by Cobbydaler

I've just installed Kubuntu & ended up downloading the alternative CD. The graphical install one wanted GRUB to take over my MBR, with no other option...

What other options are there, besides GRUB taking over the MBR? & how non-graphical is the alternative CD anyway? Does it require knowing a whole bunch of linux terminal commands?

[Cobbydaler]

<snip>What other options are there, besides GRUB taking over the MBR? & how non-graphical is the alternative CD anyway? Does it require knowing a whole bunch of linux terminal commands?

If you're not already booting another distro with XP then you don't have to use this way; but you can use your existing bootloader & install the Kubuntu GRUB to the partition where Kubuntu itself is installed. All you have to do then is edit your existing GRUB menu.lst by copying the main Kubuntu menu.lst entry into it.

For example, my menu.lst at the moment looks like this:

timeout 10
color black/cyan yellow/cyan
gfxmenu (hd0,6)/usr/share/gfxboot/themes/pclinuxos/boot/message
default 0

title PCLinuxOS 2007
kernel (hd0,6)/boot/vmlinuz-2.6.22.10.tex1 BOOT_IMAGE=PCLinuxOS_2007 root=/dev/hda7 acpi=on resume=/dev/hda8 splash=verbose vga=794
initrd (hd0,6)/boot/initrd-2.6.22.10.tex1.img

title        Ubuntu 7.10, kernel 2.6.22-14-generic
root        (hd0,4)
kernel        /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.22-14-generic root=UUID=613f5c6c-d3c9-40a9-8d47-5e81c3399782 ro quiet splash
initrd        /boot/initrd.img-2.6.22-14-generic

title linux-nonfb
kernel (hd0,6)/boot/vmlinuz BOOT_IMAGE=linux-nonfb root=/dev/hda7 acpi=on resume=/dev/hda8
initrd (hd0,6)/boot/initrd.img

title failsafe
kernel (hd0,6)/boot/vmlinuz BOOT_IMAGE=failsafe root=/dev/hda7 failsafe acpi=on resume=/dev/hda8
initrd (hd0,6)/boot/initrd.img

title Windows XP
root (hd0,0)
makeactive
chainloader +1

The ubuntu entry was just copied from its own menu.lst, which is why it's in a slightly different format.

If you're just installing Ubuntu alongside XP there's no advantage as it's not that easy to edit the XP bootloader.

The alternative CD is still graphical, but more like the the old DOS chunky graphics, no command line stuff, just arrow & tab keys to navigate, no point & click...

[xpod]

I know there are still some "hardcore" Linux users who prefer to do as much as possible with the command line interface, but for distros that are aiming for mass appeal [*buntu], especially if they want to win over more Windows users, they need to do a lot more work on the user-friendliness side of things.

*buntu [especially] is actually quite possible to use without ever going near the command line.It`s there and if you want to learn about it great but the reality is that you dont need to go near a terminal if you dont want to..
Not in Ubuntu.Normal usage can easily do without it.
It would be mad not to at least learn the basics though imho.
ALT-F2(in Ubuntu) is comparable to the Run dialogue in Windows though and just as easy to use for gk/sudo commands and suchllike

I`m also not so sure it`s Ubuntu that needs to do anything to win over Windows users......if anything i think it`s the Windows users that need to do more to win themselves over,if their at least trying Linux of course.

So I've got to wait 10 years before Linux makes sense?

Not quite that long hopefully...
Most Windows users(owners) i know though have generally had pc`s for years & years but...... many still could`nt tell you the difference between Windows and the pc itself so i dont think time has much to do with it.

At least you already know what a partition is... if you had asked me what a partition was at the time i`d have told you all about the horrid Japanesse room devider upstairs.
i was still struggling with the differences between DLL`s and LOL`s when i found Ubuntu.

[dragon]

Originally Posted by xpod

*buntu [especially] is actually quite possible to use without ever going near the command line.It`s there and if you want to learn about it great but the reality is that you dont need to go near a terminal if you dont want to..
Not in Ubuntu.Normal usage can easily do without it.
It would be mad not to at least learn the basics though imho.
ALT-F2(in Ubuntu) is comparable to the Run dialogue in Windows though and just as easy to use for gk/sudo commands and suchllike

I`m also not so sure it`s Ubuntu that needs to do anything to win over Windows users......if anything i think it`s the Windows users that need to do more to win themselves over,if their at least trying Linux of course.

Personally I can't imagine using linux without going into the cmd line at somepoint

even in windows I sometimes venture into the command-line although more so in linux simply becuase sometimes the quickest way to manipulate the filesystem is via CLI

Nothing beats an rm -rf * from root
Or if you want to see whats going on rm -rfv *
Proceed it with sudo if your on ubuntu

Just make sure your in the right dir before running that command...
(and to any novices out there. DON'T RUN THIS COMMAND unless you actually wanted to delete every file in the current dir and any directory's under it)

Also rm -rf / is a good one, but you only ever do it the once (no really don't try it it Deletes pretty much everything!)

[Alien]

Originally Posted by Cobbydaler

If you're not already booting another distro with XP then you don't have to use this way; but you can use your existing bootloader & install the Kubuntu GRUB to the partition where Kubuntu itself is installed. All you have to do then is edit your existing GRUB menu.lst by copying the main Kubuntu menu.lst entry into it.

For example, my menu.lst at the moment looks like this:

I'll bear that in mind if I ever get to that stage, thanks. ATM, I still don't have any distro installed as yet.

Originally Posted by Cobbydaler

If you're just installing Ubuntu alongside XP there's no advantage as it's not that easy to edit the XP bootloader.

The alternative CD is still graphical, but more like the the old DOS chunky graphics, no command line stuff, just arrow & tab keys to navigate, no point & click...

That's good to know, I've dealt with something like that before with... Mandrake, I think it was. I wasn't sure which alternate CD to try, & then I thought "sod it, I've got broadband & enough HDD space", so queued up all 4 [32 & 64bit versions of Kubuntu & Ubuntu, incase the alternate version of Kubuntu is better behaved than the Live version]. The 1 downside to this idea is that I finally saw the dreaded traffic shaping in action.

Originally Posted by xpod

*buntu [especially] is actually quite possible to use without ever going near the command line.It's there and if you want to learn about it great but the reality is that you dont need to go near a terminal if you dont want to..
Not in Ubuntu.Normal usage can easily do without it.
It would be mad not to at least learn the basics though imho.
ALT-F2(in Ubuntu) is comparable to the Run dialogue in Windows though and just as easy to use for gk/sudo commands and suchllike

Well that's good to hear. It's 1 thing to be able to learn it as & when I have the inclination & time to do so, but it would be a pain to have to be forced to learn it, just to do basic stuff or get stuff to work.

Speaking of getting stuff to work [& going off on a bit of a tangent], please tell me that someone's come up with some proper drivers for the Logitech MX1000, or at least a tool to map the commands/functions I want to specific buttons on mice with more than 3 buttons. It was rather annoying using the Back button in Firefox only to have it do paste-from-clipboard instead of making Firefox go back a page.

Originally Posted by xpod

I'm also not so sure it's Ubuntu that needs to do anything to win over Windows users......if anything i think it's the Windows users that need to do more to win themselves over,if their at least trying Linux of course.

I have to disagree quite strongly on this 1. A lot of Linux users want more Windows users to make the switch to Linux, but the majority of Windows users tend to be fairly content with Windows. I'd also say that the majority of Windows users that do decide to give Linux a try only do so out of curiosity, rather than need. If they needed to switch to Linux, then perhaps I could see your point about them being the ones to put in a bit of extra effort, but if you're only trying something out of curiosity you don't want to spend hours tearing your hair out in frustration, or googling & trawling endless forums & mailing lists just to get it to work; something that Windows tends to do most of the time without much effort at all. To me, it's kind of like the difference between staying in a hotel, & roughing it in a tent. Whilst there are some who would choose the tent [especially if it was given to them for free], most people would rather the comfort of the hotel.

Originally Posted by xpod

Not quite that long hopefully...
Most Windows users(owners) i know though have generally had pc's for years & years but...... many still could'nt tell you the difference between Windows and the pc itself so i dont think time has much to do with it.

Well, my first exposure to proper PCs was with the 386s we had at school, but we weren't really allowed to experiment much with them, just use them in the manner dictated. [Although that didn't stop us using the head of the computer department's login details to play Lemmings when he wasn't around, so that he wouldn't be able to prove who'd been running what. ] I believe they were running Windows 3.1 [or was it 3.11? maybe Dilli remembers ].

I didn't really have much of a chance to freely experiment with x86-based computers until I got my first [a 286 laptop with 640KB RAM & DOS, second hand for £20] in 1997. A few months later I fished the case & motherboard of a 486 out of a skip, & bought the rest of the parts, & worked my way up from there.

[xpod]

Personally I can't imagine using linux without going into the cmd line at somepoint

How about Star wars via the terminal....

telnet towel.blinkenlights.nl

Well that's good to hear. It's 1 thing to be able to learn it as & when I have the inclination & time to do so, but it would be a pain to have to be forced to learn it, just to do basic stuff or get stuff to work.

Could`nt agree with you more.

Speaking of getting stuff to work [& going off on a bit of a tangent], please tell me that someone's come up with some proper drivers for the Logitech MX1000, or at least a tool to map the commands/functions I want to specific buttons on mice with more than 3 buttons. It was rather annoying using the Back button in Firefox only to have it do paste-from-clipboard instead of making Firefox go back a page.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MX1000Mouse

I have to disagree quite strongly on this 1. A lot of Linux users want more Windows users to make the switch to Linux, but the majority of Windows users tend to be fairly content with Windows. I'd also say that the majority of Windows users that do decide to give Linux a try only do so out of curiosity, rather than need. If they needed to switch to Linux, then perhaps I could see your point about them being the ones to put in a bit of extra effort, but if you're only trying something out of curiosity you don't want to spend hours tearing your hair out in frustration, or googling & trawling endless forums & mailing lists just to get it to work; something that Windows tends to do most of the time without much effort at all. To me, it's kind of like the difference between staying in a hotel, & roughing it in a tent. Whilst there are some who would choose the tent [especially if it was given to them for free], most people would rather the comfort of the hotel.

I really dont think those "Linux users" are too interested one way or another and if anything i think those "hardcore users" you previously mentined in partucular would rather we all stopped coming and left them to their terminals probably......us and our bloody GUI`s

I`m with you 100% on things being as simple as they can possibly be m8.I myself spent countless posts arguing that point with some of the gurus out there during my first weeks & months.
Automatix anyone???

Being a complete newb to pC`s it`s hard for me to relate to some of the arguments i hear when for me...Windows & Linux have been the same either way.Both new,both strange,both different.......both confusing,both fun....both frustrating.Both absolutely hilarious at times.

No matter what browser i use

Well, my first exposure to proper PCs was with the 386s we had at school, but we weren't really allowed to experiment much with them, just use them in the manner dictated. [Although that didn't stop us using the head of the computer department's login details to play Lemmings when he wasn't around, so that he wouldn't be able to prove who'd been running what. ] I believe they were running Windows 3.1 [or was it 3.11? maybe Dilli remembers ].

I didn't really have much of a chance to freely experiment with x86-based computers until I got my first [a 286 laptop with 640KB RAM & DOS, second hand for £20] in 1997. A few months later I fished the case & motherboard of a 486 out of a skip, & bought the rest of the parts, & worked my way up from there.

I never sat down at a pc really until last March although i did have the obligatory commodore64 as a teen.I was much more interested in my snooker table back then i think.....amongst other things.
Still blame that track & field game for the Carpals Tunnel Syndrome all these years later though..

[Alien]

Originally Posted by xpod

How about Star wars via the terminal....

(-O-) "I know what you're getting for christmas, I have felt your presents."

Originally Posted by xpod

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MX1000Mouse

Bookmarked, cheers for that.
<types something into the searchbox on that page>
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img] They've done the G15 keyboard as well! And it's for the older [& better, IMHO] version, not the newer crappy version.

Originally Posted by xpod

I really dont think those "Linux users" are too interested one way or another and if anything i think those "hardcore users" you previously mentined in partucular would rather we all stopped coming and left them to their terminals probably......us and our bloody GUI's

LOL, there may be some truth to that.

Originally Posted by xpod

Being a complete newb to pC's it's hard for me to relate to some of the arguments i hear when for me...Windows & Linux have been the same either way.Both new,both strange,both different.......both confusing,both fun....both frustrating.Both absolutely hilarious at times.

I suppose it's different for me, as I've been with Windows not just for longer, but through several versions as well [still avoiding Vista though].

Originally Posted by xpod

I never sat down at a pc really until last March although i did have the obligatory commodore64 as a teen.I was much more interested in my snooker table back then i think.....amongst other things.
Still blame that track & field game for the Carpals Tunnel Syndrome all these years later though..

Get a Powerball. I haven't been diagnosed with anything with my hands/wrists/arms, but they do give me pain sometimes, especially when I've been doing a lot of typing/mousing, but I find my Powerball definitely helps.

[xpod]

(-O-) "I know what you're getting for christmas, I have felt your presents."

My presents are felt by all those before me

Bookmarked, cheers for that.
<types something into the searchbox on that page>
They've done the G15 keyboard as well! And it's for the older [& better, IMHO] version, not the newer crappy version.

Good stuff.

I suppose it's different for me, as I've been with Windows not just for longer, but through several versions as well [still avoiding Vista though].

I`ve been through a few versions myself strangely enough....just not over the same time scale of course.Me,XP Home & Pro as well as Vista.Along with some dodgy live versions just recently.

Bar Vista though,all came installed on the pc`s in question when i got them.
They`ve all long been wiped or at least backed up to bootable cd`s where possible.
Gparted fodder

Get a Powerball. I haven't been diagnosed with anything with my hands/wrists/arms, but they do give me pain sometimes, especially when I've been doing a lot of typing/mousing, but I find my Powerball definitely helps.

I`ll certainly look into them,cheers

[dragon]

Powerball?

I've got an iffy wrist as well it clicks sometimes, that can't be good!

[Alien]

Originally Posted by xpod

I've been through a few versions myself strangely enough....just not over the same time scale of course.Me,XP Home & Pro as well as Vista.

With me it was 3.11, 95B [aka 95 OSR2, which would probably be called SP2 nowadays], 98SE, XP Pro, & now just starting with XP Pro x64 edition.

Originally Posted by xpod

Along with some dodgy live versions just recently.

Ah, you mean BartPE? You can make 1 of them up with the BartPE prog & a genuine Windows CD [or a non genuine 1, if you like ]. Making 1 of those is another of the many things on my to-do list that I haven't gotten around to yet.

Originally Posted by xpod

I'll certainly look into them,cheers

They can also fix Carpal Tunnel with surgery now I think.

---------- Post added at 22:40 ---------- Previous post was at 22:14 ----------

Originally posted & then deleted by dragon [& he's gonna get a slap if he does it again! [img]Download Failed (1)[/img]]
Powerball?

I've got an iffy wrist as well it clicks sometimes, that can't be good!

Yes, Powerball. These things:
linkage

I've got 1 of the Signature series.

[dragon]

Originally Posted by Alien

With me it was 3.11, 95B [aka 95 OSR2, which would
Yes, Powerball. These things:
linkage

I've got 1 of the Signature series.

Oh those things, ive seen those before and never really given them a second look, maybe I'll have to now.

[xpod]

Ah, you mean BartPE? You can make 1 of them up with the BartPE prog & a genuine Windows CD [or a non genuine 1, if you like ]. Making 1 of those is another of the many things on my to-do list that I haven't gotten around to yet.

I never did these particular ones myself with BartPE but yes,i think they are a result of that(XPE?).They were just iso`s when i got them though.
I just thought a live windows cd would be a potentially handy addition to the little bag of tricks.
Nlites a good utility for making your own normal stripped out,unattended XP cd`s.
I wish i had known about it last year when i was struggling with various other methods of making bootable XP cd`s, from the copies that were on the pc`s in question of course.

They can also fix Carpal Tunnel with surgery now I think.

I`ve actually not had any real trouble since the last steroid injections but i am being booked for the op if it returns this time ...again.
The wife reckons i`ll always have my w*****s cramp as she affectionately calls it.Her grandmother had it all her days,even after jags & ops.

[Alien]

Originally Posted by xpod

I never did these particular ones myself with BartPE but yes,i think they are a result of that(XPE?).They were just iso's when i got them though.

Could it have been WinPE? That's the official MS 1, intended for large companies & OEMs to use in-house for setting up systems.

Originally Posted by xpod

I just thought a live windows cd would be a potentially handy addition to the little bag of tricks.

Definitely, which is why it's on my to-do [eventually] list.

Originally Posted by xpod

Nlites a good utility for making your own normal stripped out,unattended XP cd's.

Yeah, I know - another item on my list. Mostly to get rid of some stuff that I uninstall as soon as Windows is setup anyway, & also to automate the install of a few things.

Originally Posted by xpod

I wish i had known about it last year when i was struggling with various other methods of making bootable XP cd's, from the copies that were on the pc's in question of course.

LOL.

Originally Posted by xpod

I've actually not had any real trouble since the last steroid injections but i am being booked for the op if it returns this time ...again.

I'm not sure if my mum had that done or something else, as she had several ops on her hand, though I know that was partly fixing an injury.

Originally Posted by xpod

The wife reckons i'll always have my w*****s cramp as she affectionately calls it.Her grandmother had it all her days,even after jags & ops.

...

[xpod]

Could it have been WinPE? That's the official MS 1, intended for large companies & OEMs to use in-house for setting up systems.

You may be right.......some XP Pro(2003) version.Cant recall exactly where i got it though.I`d need to retrace my steps mabey.
It is called XPE though.

Definitely, which is why it's on my to-do [eventually] list.

Yeah, I know - another item on my list. Mostly to get rid of some stuff that I uninstall as soon as Windows is setup anyway, & also to automate the install of a few things.

Those "lists" do seem to get quite get long eh
Nlites great for the job at hand though.

Which brings me to her grandmother
lmao.....Bounty Kitchenroll you reckon huh??