smoking and the pub

Originally Posted by punky

Established... but not quantifiable. Unlike being stabbed or shot.

Because of the unquantiable nature of smoking and cancer, the chance of dying via smoking versus dying via stabbing, will never be known.

It is quantifiable
"In 2003 across the United Kingdom an estimated 617 people died from the effects of passive smoking at work, 54 of these were long term employees of the hospitality industry. Another 11,000 deaths were attributable to passive smoking exposure in the home in adults aged 20 to ≥ 65.This accounts for around 2% of the current annual toll from all smoking related deaths in the UK.

Population estimates in the US show the number of annual estimated deaths from Second Hand Smoke exposure as significant. For nonsmokers:

· around 3,400 people die from lung cancer (ranging from 3,423 to 8,866)
· 46,000 die from cardiac-related illness (range of 22,700 to 69,600)
· 430 children die from sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS).

Another 24,500 babies are born with low birth weight and 71,900 born prematurely. There are around 202,300 episodes of childhood asthma (new cases and exacerbations) and 787,700 cases of middle ear infection in children due to SHS exposure"

Can you quantify the number of hospitality staff stabbed/shot?

Originally Posted by punky

But they do. Noone is forced to do any job..

You obviously haven't been to JobCentre+ lately - if you don't find your type of job within 13 weeks, you must try for anything - I cannot see them accepting "I do not wish to work in an area where I will be exposed to Second Hand Smoke" as a reason not to take a job.

Originally Posted by punky

Despite the name, it isn't though. They are private places of business and the landlords/ladies/employees/patrons choose to enter/work in..

And as a place of business, they must comply with health & safety regulations, including those about not allowing an environment or conditions that could negatively affect their employees health. We often take the jobs we can get, not the jobs we want.

Originally Posted by punky

When you say people have no choice to work in a pub, I think that's pretty insulting to them.

If that is their skillset and they enjoy their job, how is it an insult? (I worked in a pub for a few months, and a few of my colleagues had worked in bars for over 20 years - they would find it difficult to get another job).

[hatedbythemail]

punky, you seem not to understand the realities of those in low wage economies. choice is not by any means a given.

as for suggesting its insulting to people when i say that they dont have a choice to work in a smoking pub, that is frankly, arrant nonsense. i'm not demeaning the job in any way - its tough (split shifts etc) and can require great diplomatic skills (hey orangebird is your mother anything like you? ;-) ) but people mnight have to take a job in a smoking pub out of necessity.

pubs are public places by definition. just because they are places of work does not make them any less public.and public places are subject to all kinds of jurisdiction as foreverwar pointed out pages and pages ago. this is simply another restriction designed to protect public health, including staff (whom I bang the drum for the most because i really dont accept that choice is always there). and govts for aeons have taken steps to protect public health so i think prevention of inhalation of benzene, nicotine etc etc is just continuing a fine and well established tradition.

sometiomews the public need protecting from themselves and other members of the public - you'll find reams and reams of legislation demonstrating that fact.


anyways this thread is getting incredibly tedious and going around in circles, enlivened only by orangebird's amusingly intemeperate interjections

its happening people. get over it. move along, there's nothing to see here.....

[punky]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

It is quantifiable

It isn't. How many cigarettes give you cancer? Some people smoke 1 a day and get lung cancer at 40, some smoker 40+ and live to they are 90. How is that quantiable?

If its quantifable, then how many cigarettes will give you cancer? How much passive smoking will give you cancer? Noone can possibly say

And whats to say that a smoker who gets lung cancer is directly due to smoking? Smoking is a contributary cause, but its not the only cause. It can be coincidence.

· around 3,400 people die from lung cancer (ranging from 3,423 to 8,866)
· 46,000 die from cardiac-related illness (range of 22,700 to 69,600)
· 430 children die from sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS).

How the hell can they say SHS causes cot death? Noone knows what causes cot death. Over the years almost everything has been blamed on it, from lead paint, overheating due to being wrapped in blankets and murderous mums.

And how can they say what percentage of cardiac-related illnesses are due to SHS?

[FONT=Arial][I]Another 24,500 babies are born with low birth weight and 71,900 born prematurely. There are around 202,300 episodes of childhood asthma (new cases and exacerbations) and 787,700 cases of middle ear infection in children due to SHS exposure"

And it can be proven that that was all down to SHS and no other cause?

You obviously haven't been to JobCentre+ lately - if you don't find your type of job within 13 weeks, you must try for anything - I cannot see them accepting "I do not wish to work in an area where I will be exposed to Second Hand Smoke" as a reason not to take a job.

Actually, I have... And there are other jobs than bar work available. People are capable of doing hundreds of different jobs without specialisr training. You could also start your business. Retrain in something else.

And as a place of business, they must comply with health & safety regulations, including those about not allowing an environment or conditions that could negatively affect their employees health.

What about Police? Fire brigade? Security guards?

If that is their skillset and they enjoy their job, how is it an insult? (I worked in a pub for a few months, and a few of my colleagues had worked in bars for over 20 years - they would find it difficult to get another job).

Difficult does not equal impossible. To say people are only capable of one sole employ is insulting.

---------- Post added at 18:12 ---------- Previous post was at 18:06 ----------

Originally Posted by hatedbythemail

punky, you seem not to understand the realities of those in low wage economies. choice is not by any means a given.

Yeah, OK. I disagree with you, so I don't understand?

pubs are public places by definition.

No they aren't. That's why you can be barred by the owners. If they are public, then everyone, children and adults, would have a right to be there. They aren't. The are private businesses.

anyways this thread is getting incredibly tedious and going around in circles,

Couldn't have put it better myself

You and your cohorts (lot allowed to say mob anymore?) can say I have no idea what its like to be poor (I am earning less than minimum wage, remember), etc, but that doesn't mean I am wrong.

[hatedbythemail]

who's attacking anyone? (o/b excepted of course )

final point before i go slash my wrists at the futility of life as highlighted by this thread - employment opportunities vary and in poorer areas, where smoking is much more prevalent, job choice is much more limited. thats my point.

as this appears to be turning into a bit of a slanging match (not my intention at all) and incredibly, incredibly tedious i shall try and, er, butt out now

---------- Post added at 17:26 ---------- Previous post was at 17:25 ----------

ps. youre a mod now punky. you can say what you like

[Angua]

Sometimes the only job you can take is bar work because your partner works during the day minding the under 5's then you swap and this is the only job that fits your family arrangements.

[punky]

Foreverwar: Just to stop you from writing a long post that I have no real desire to reply to (which isn't fair on you) as this isn't going to go anywhere good can we just agree to disagree?

[Salu]

Originally Posted by punky

People who smoke 40+ a day have been known to live into their 90s, where as some don't.

Although people have been known to live into their 90s and smoked these numbers are very very small. If you smoke you are highly likely to die as as result of smoking. You also may loose your legs or spend several years on permanent oxygen and not being able to walk more than 2 paces without feeling like you have just run a marathon.

People often say to me "I could get run over by a bus tomorrow".....well that would be a much kinder way to die than from the above. It's not a quick easy death. If you smokers could spend a day with me I'm sure you'd think a little harder about stopping.

Originally Posted by punky

Foreverwar: Just to stop you from writing a long post that I have no real desire to reply to (which isn't fair on you) as this isn't going to go anywhere good can we just agree to disagree?

Sounds good to me

Let's get together for a drink on 1st July to discuss it further, eh?

This might be of interest to smokers (and friends/relatives thereof -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6207176.stm
"A new type of treatment to help smokers quit is now available in the UK.

Varenicline (champix) is the first non-nicotine drug developed specifically to help smokers give up.

The drug mimics the effect of nicotine on the body and is thought to work by both reducing the urge to smoke and relieving withdrawal symptoms.

Experts said there was likely to be heavy demand for the drug ahead of the ban on smoking in public places in England, which takes effect next July."

[punky]

I found this quite interesting.

snippets:

"If the smoking ban in Scotland had not been introduced I would still be a non-smoker," says Andy Hughes of Edinburgh, where the ban came into force in March last year. "I started because I was being left in pubs and clubs alone for long periods of time, while the rest of my group were outside chatting and having a smoke.

...

More smokers choose to stay at home and have a puff, exposing their children to second-hand fumes, says a report from the International Epidemiological Association.

Scottish pubs have seen a 10% drop in sales and a 14% drop in custom since the ban. But cigarette sales went up by almost 5% in the six months after the ban, according to figures from the Scottish Grocers Federation.

...

With punters who smoke being forced outside for a fag, pubs are keen to make them as comfortable as possible so they go back in and spend more money. Thousands are being spent by breweries on outdoor smoking areas.

Keeping the chill off smokers is high up the list of priorities, putting outdoor heaters on the shopping list. The introduction of the smoking ban in England is expected to trigger a huge increase in demand for heat umbrellas, potentially creating a new environmental burden

[Chris W]

As of tomorrow our smoking staff room at work will be no more Only place we will be allowed to smoke will the the "designated smoking area" (read: bus shelter). Booooo.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Andy Hughes

"If the smoking ban in Scotland had not been introduced I would still be a non-smoker," says Andy Hughes of Edinburgh, where the ban came into force in March last year. "I started because I was being left in pubs and clubs alone for long periods of time, while the rest of my group were outside chatting and having a smoke.

And the award for the least will-power in the Western world goes to Andy Hughes of Edinburgh.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Derek S

And the award for the least will-power in the Western world goes to Andy Hughes of Edinburgh.

Can't wait to hear his excuse for the smack habit

[Derek]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Can't wait to hear his excuse for the smack habit

Well he is from Edinburgh....

Being an asthmatic, I had always been against smoking. I never used to let anyone smoke in my car or house.

Just how stupid can someone be?

[r00t]

Looking forward to the ban in Liverpool.
I'm a *new* non smoker see here http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/22...24-i-quit.html
and I'm not really bothered about the smell of the smoke in pubs, what does bother me is seeing smokers sitting in the non smoking area smoking; how rude!
Non smokers were given that little space in the corner where they could sit and be away from direct smoke, but someone would sit there and puff away. It annoyed me to see it done when I smoked and it annoys me more now.

Hope this doesn't come across as a advert and if its against the forum policy, staff please remove reference to it.
Allen Carr's Easyway to stop smoking, great book. I was reading this whilst using patches, I was about 2 weeks into using patches;I finished the book took off the patch and have not smoked since.

[Shaun]

When I read that I thought you meant the commedian Alan Carr: