how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we LIKE SHAPING - Page 4

helmutcheese · 19-05-2007, 23:31

ZZzzzzz, if they cant run a business time to call it a day, and liquidate them, some users here seem to think we cutomers owe the ISP something, they run a business and its went downhill since NTL took over TW-BY, so we get retentions not to leave with the promise it will be fixed shortly but I for one would rather pay the full wack for my old 10meg service than have a free serfvice like the one Ive had since Oct 2006 and the Shaping is another nail in the coffin for them.

I told you weeks ago NTL wasted millions on sponsering too many football teams and buying QVC (so stort goes), added to the $36million to Uma thats now failed to attract new cutomers so she is now going to be replaced by Ruby Wax, so that was a waste of cash for a few months, the cash could have upgraded some UBR's but still they are too many users per UBR in some areas because NTL got greedy.

Sherlock614 · 20-05-2007, 00:15

Couldn't agree more

Went on this evening... Did a bit of gaming etc. Downloaded a few bits (that i didn't realise took me over the threshold of doom) then BAM - I'm on half speed.

Great.

kpanchev · 20-05-2007, 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackSon

Yet another view linking agreement with shaping with poor interlect. They really should do debating in schools, as incinuating insults in an argument, however subtle, detracts credibility from it.

But taking the bait, and continuing along that line of thought I think there is poor sense in trying to discuss broadband service in analogies of other services which actually do not cater for the whole story. Electric supply is one situation, car sales is another; and similarly, broadband is its own specific entity. You cannot describe one by talking about another, as they are not really the same thing having different deciding factors.

As for praising the job VM are doing, I'll just re-explain what I have put before hand. I praise the fact they are putting forth policies in the public eye in order to maintain constant usability from their network after recognising a potential service limitation. Now, this line has to be drawn somewhere, and no matter where it is drawn, there is always going to be some people on the wrong side of it. This line of fair use, outlined by VM, has the implication that anybody exceeding such during the peak usage period (when every man and his dog wants to use the service) is going beyond the amount set aside for their personal use out of the bandwidth pool available to everyone. It is by this definition that some customers are labelled as 'abusers', as is defined by VM and their imposed limits. So in respect of that, yes, for as long as they exceed the fair usage policy, I will continue to use the term 'abusers' seeing as they are using their fair share and portions thereof of other customers. However, it is easily overlooked that despite breeching the fair usage during peak hours, VM are NOT cutting off access to these people, they only decide to turn their speed down for a period. Usually, the penalties for exceeding usage is service termination or extra fees - the policy VM have encompasses none of those measure, it allows service to continue uninterrupted, and that isn't fair? To me, that is worthy of a bit of praise as it is meeting in the middle ground. It is a lenient punishment. However, I will concede, it would be approrpiate for VM to change the 'unlimited' advertising of the service as it is a little misleading in terms of traffic shaping, but it is only the marketing I have a gripe with.

As for money, NTL/VM has been recouping losses for some time as we all know. Therefore investment in the network is also, by no means unlimited, but there is also no doubt that if things are going to improve, it is going to take good old fashioned cash. What's a good way to increase your revenue? Of course, it's the old chestnut of bump up the prices a wee bit. Now, most of us, myself included, would have been a little bit narked if the XL price went up Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£2 a month extra if nothing else was changing to the service, and I think VM were able to forsee that. So really their only option was to include a speed increase to justify the future rise in broadband rental - and a significant speed increase would also bring in some new customers as well which would help the cash flow. With the existing network, it seems VM were aware that it would not be able to support this huge speed for everbody the whole time so they had to decide what to do. Traffic shaping was obviously their solution, and if it keeps things running, giving us all a fair share of fast access whilst they get themselves and hopefully their network sorted out in the near future, then I don't see it as a waste.

In closing, I am happy to debate why my opion is that shaping is not a bad thing. However, keep insults out of your arguments - let's be grown up about this shall we?

Ok, JackSon, let's do some debating. First, you say that we should not compare different services as they are not the same. Well, I would say that all services have one thing in common: they provide SERVICES to CUSTOMERS, and the CUSTOMERS pay MONEY for it. Now what happens, if the customer does not get the service he/she pays for? He gets DISSATISFIED. What happens, when a customer gets dissatisfied? They LEAVE the service and STOP PAYING. That's one side of the business model so far. VM are clever enough to foresee it, so they do what? - when a customer wants to leave, they offer the stars to keep him/her. On the other hand, they run an advertising campaign with even higher speeds, unlimited downloads, bundles with freebies etc. in order to get more and more customers, who pay money. BUT the bandwidth/service is not improved to correspond to the increased amount of customers! So why is this? One possible answer - new customers are bound with 12 months contract and cannot leave - income secured! Old customers not leaving gives good name of the business, thus bringing more new customers, so .... more money!
This is more or less VM's current business model. It is a very good model, if you plan to use it for a couple of years or so, after that get what you can and move on. But this is not a business model, that leaves happy customers! That's why I can't get my mind around the fact, that you are happy being f**ked up! (sorry for the word, but it keeps coming to my mind before any other word)

JackSon · 20-05-2007, 01:16

I see now, your entire point is based on the assumption that I am being F'ed (as you put it). The flaw in that though is that from my view point of my service which I pay for, I am not being F'ed. Although I deeply am touched that you feel cheated on my behalf but the truth is the management does not interfere with my usage, and even if it did, I see it as a fair thing. Yet, the policy in effect helps to ensure a high standard of my service.

I fully understand, as I hinted at before, that always there will be some people who are on the other side of the line in the sand. And in addition to that, I am fully respectful that they see, in light of their service usage, that traffic shaping is a bad thing for them. Just the same as how I am able to view the policy in the context of my usage and see it as good.

So the bottom line is really, for my internet habbits, the shaping policy interferes no more than if there were no policy at all, but with the added bonus that netowrk conditions will not become poor when there is a multitide of high usage on during peak times. I dare say for others it is not the same, but I, for one am not F'ed at all

helmutcheese · 20-05-2007, 01:37

I have gave TW-BY countless customers from family to customers of my PC business, now I would not give VM 1 of them, I dont encourage them to get cable, I let them make their own choice with no input from myself and before someone says I got paid for it in referals, I didnt as they already had the phone or TV normally so were not classed as new customers when they got in Cable BB

lezwez · 20-05-2007, 01:37

Could anybody who supports shapping or capping please explain to me why they support it and favour the idea i have read this post a few times now and it just does not sink into my little mind.

JackSon · 20-05-2007, 01:45

Traffic shaping is good, because without it, Volvo's would still be cuboids on wheels

Capping is not good however (on a serious note) as that incurrs service loss or penalty charges.

helmutcheese · 20-05-2007, 01:46

They dont have any real reasons apart from to Troll/Flame others who aint happy with VM currenty after possibly years of a good service esp with TW-BY, they cant even admit the network is oversubbed (can get info from 2nd line or Team Leader if your in a area with major issues) one of them even tried to tell me there is no oversubsription after I got it from VM about my UBR, pure greed is all it is, signed up more users that the hardware was able to cope with esp for 10megs users, then offer 20meg and promise 50meg, no way it will happen till they dig deep and start to do work on network full upgrades not botch up jobs to get by with as in that report last week on front page here or at Digitalspy.

popper · 20-05-2007, 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackSon

Traffic shaping is good, because without it, Volvo's would still be cuboids on wheels

Capping is not good however (on a serious note) as that incurrs service loss or penalty charges.

so you dont like 'penalty charges' and for instance you would, or indeed already have used the consumer contract law to claim your unlawful bank charges back already?.

why dont you like 'penalty charges'?.

lezwez · 20-05-2007, 02:01

i never once had issues with telewest never once even with my over useage i got what i paid for not once i could complain i understand a new service comes into play and there will be faults as such but these sort of issues lol i hate cover ups

JackSon · 20-05-2007, 04:03

Penalty charges in terms of a price per unit bandwidth which is charged when you exceed your limit. Is a little out of control and out of mind until a bill arrives, is why I don't like the idea of that.

popper · 20-05-2007, 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackSon

Penalty charges in terms of a price per unit bandwidth which is charged when you exceed your limit. Is a little out of control and out of mind until a bill arrives, is why I don't like the idea of that.

so your saying you deem any penalty charges as an unlawful charge under the consumer contract as the courts do today,yes?.

By the way ,did you already claim your bank charges back out of interest?.

Dawn Falcon · 20-05-2007, 15:58

Jackson, your service HAS been downgraded because of the marketing-lead drive to 20MBit services (which are, thanks to the same change, barely useable for most people).

That you, yourself, do not feel put out by this dosn't mean that a lot of people are or that this is not a completely valid viewpoint. This is not about heavy users, it affects the average users of the service. (And kick the 24/7 downloaders off, don't cater to them!)

JackSon · 20-05-2007, 16:17

I said nothing about it being unlawful. What I did say was that I don't like how the cost mounts up in the back ground until a usage bill lands on the letter mat. It also is a bit hypothertical in this sense as a 'pay for bandwidth over quota' system is not in effect, it was listed as one (of many) possible alternatives to the chosen policy.

Dawn Falcon, yes, my service has been sitting on the bottom end of the slow scale for some time, but I don't hold the shaping policy in account for that, which, is what this particular thread is about. I also did say that I was aaware that this opinion of mine was not specific to all. But then, when we choose a broadband service, or any other service for that matter, we are all selfish. We choose something which suits rus ather than something which we think would suit everybody. This shaping policy suits me, and I am happy to stay. I know it doesn't suit others, and they are welcome to make their own arangements.

lezwez · 20-05-2007, 17:27

So can anybody give me a valid reason to why they support this shapping stuff?