how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by danielf

I'll take that as a yes then

I'd like to think that VM would be prepared were they to be challenged on the matter by an individual via the small claims process to the degree that they would be able to turn up in court with factual evidence to defend their position / actions.

I'd be shocked if they thought they could simply turn up and say "Well, we believe he had exceeded the limits".

On that basis I'd assume that the data is / would be available for daily useage.

Otherwise the implementation of Traffic Management could be "willy nilly" and we wouldn't want that now, would we?

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I'd like to think that VM would be prepared were they to be challenged on the matter by an individual via the small claims process to the degree that they would be able to turn up in court with factual evidence to defend their position / actions.

I'd be shocked if they thought they could simply turn up and say "Well, we believe he had exceeded the limits".

On that basis I'd assume that the data is / would be available for daily useage.

Otherwise the implementation of Traffic Management could be "willy nilly" and we wouldn't want that now, would we?

Yes, fair points. You would think that if a decision that could be contested is made on the basis of that data, they'd hang on to the proof. Mind you, this is NTL/VM

what a company does isnt always going to please everyone so thats why you have different companies out there. So I dont see the point in complaining if its something u dont like then find a supplier that doesnt do the what former company does

[danielf]

Originally Posted by darthlinux

what a company does isnt always going to please everyone so thats why you have different companies out there. So I dont see the point in complaining if its something u dont like then find a supplier that doesnt do the what former company does

Some (not all) people are complaining about apparently being shaped without going over their peak time allowance. Surely, if VM say you can download x amount at peak times before being shaped and people are shaped regardless they have a right to complain?

(BTW: on a rare occasion I exceeded my peak time download limit yesterday, but I didn't notice any shaping, so whatever is happening/going wrong does not appear to apply across the board).

[Locky]

The Shapeing Is Not In Effect In All Areas Until The 20 Meg Rollout Is Complete It Only Remains In Areas It Was Active In Before The Started Rollout Of 20 Meg

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by darthlinux

what a company does isnt always going to please everyone so thats why you have different companies out there. So I dont see the point in complaining if its something u dont like then find a supplier that doesnt do the what former company does

Entirely valid points.

However, if a company is going to allege that I'm one the top 5% of abusers and treat me like one then I'd like them to be able to substantiate that allegation - be that through the DPA or in a court of law.

[Bertie_MB]

I very much doubt any campaign that got started would help matters to be honest. If you don't like it then leave. Yes it's all very well saying "but I'm in a 12 month contract" - well thats the risk you take. Why would that be any different with any other company? You could have gone and got ADSL but then discovered your max speed was 512k - at the end of the day you'd have the same problem.

Some of the arguments are just plain ridiculous. The first post for example regarding an episode of TV. 350MB on a 1MB connection takes 2917 seconds (49 minutes) (assuming a speed of 120kb/s). Before you come back at me and say "well I can't get that speed because the connection's so bad" please don't. Thats an entirely different issue to the traffic shaping being discussed. So even if you spend your entire time downloading and watching TV, you'll still always be ahead of the amount you can watch (since at 2MB you'll have got 2 episodes already in half the time, so have some time spare).

The example of game demo's and movie trailers - well you can wait for those it's not like you're going anywhere. Add this all to the fact that the shaping only affects you once you've gone above the limits AND after 4pm AND for only 4 hours at a time and you can soon see how it's a sensible move by VM.

However if some of you would like to post some scenario's of internet usage (I mean actual numbers, not just "I download this tv program in twice the time") then maybe I'd change my views on this. If you can't do that to a user on the forums then what luck do you expect to have with VM, considering even if everyone on this site quite VM thats still only 10,000 customers. I don't see much chance of that happening either...

[welwynrose]

Originally Posted by danielf

Some (not all) people are complaining about apparently being shaped without going over their peak time allowance. Surely, if VM say you can download x amount at peak times before being shaped and people are shaped regardless they have a right to complain?

(BTW: on a rare occasion I exceeded my peak time download limit yesterday, but I didn't notice any shaping, so whatever is happening/going wrong does not appear to apply across the board).

that's the problem - a lot of people are shouting the odds about their speeds - without looking into any other possibility other than traffic shaping

[popper]

Bertie, you should really read all the thread before you post, your not going to be starting or joining any campaign then i assume as your a member of the 'If you don't like it then leave' club.

holding UK companys to the letter of the two partys contract (within reason) or sending an official DPA for clarification as to their assertion that your an abuser and fall within this mythical 5% of broadband abusers doesnt interest you then?.

out of interest, how do you personally stop UK companys abusing the set terms of your/a consumer contracts at the expense of the other partys (you/end users)?, leave them to continue and go find yourself another company until you discover they too are doing the same?.

what do you do when you have been through them all ,start again at 1?.

[Bertie_MB]

Originally Posted by popper

holding UK companys to the letter of the two partys contract (within reason) or sending an official DPA for clarification as to their assertion that your an abuser and fall within this mythical 5% of broadband abusers doesnt interest you then?.

Who said anything about it being mythical? From http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...t/traffic.html :

They discovered that, in certain areas, just 5% of customers were downloading such a large amount of content that it was affecting the service for other users in these areas.

If they've done reasearch to show that 5% of people on 2MB download more than 350MB, 5% on 4MB download more than 750MB and 5% on 10/20MB download 3GB in one evening after 4pm then fair enough. If you've been wrongly shown to be downloading more than your allowance when actually you haven't then yes go ahead complain. It's not a reason to stop shaping entirely, it just means those specific users should contact CS and sort it out - no need for a 'campaign'.

[Horace]

Originally Posted by danielf

Some (not all) people are complaining about apparently being shaped without going over their peak time allowance. Surely, if VM say you can download x amount at peak times before being shaped and people are shaped regardless they have a right to complain?

(BTW: on a rare occasion I exceeded my peak time download limit yesterday, but I didn't notice any shaping, so whatever is happening/going wrong does not appear to apply across the board).

It's not across the board. STM is being installed in parallel with the 20meg uplifts. From what I've read, the new hardware that is allowing the uplift is also responsible for STM.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Bertie_MB

Who said anything about it being mythical? From http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...t/traffic.html :



If they've done reasearch to show that 5% of people on 2MB download more than 350MB, 5% on 4MB download more than 750MB and 5% on 10/20MB download 3GB in one evening after 4pm then fair enough. If you've been wrongly shown to be downloading more than your allowance when actually you haven't then yes go ahead complain. It's not a reason to stop shaping entirely, it just means those specific users should contact CS and sort it out - no need for a 'campaign'.

Just as a matter of interest Bertie - What would you anticipate that a member of CS might say if they were contacted / challenged by someone who believed, sincerely, and had evidentiary proof that they had been unfairly traffic managed?

Do you think that the CS member might say "Ooops, sorry there. Thanks for pointing out our error, it won't happen again" and that the customer would be entirely satisfied with the outcome - safe in the knowledge that he / she has had an admission of wrongdoing and a verbal undertaking from a frontline member of staff that such an error would not occur again?

Personally I'm suspicious of the methodology behind the statistical research. I cannot be the only living being who finds it remarkably coincidental that 5% (on each service tier mind you) are reportedly responsible for the wheels coming off the VM broadband service.

This smacks of reverse statistical analysis in the form of "Determine the most common download totals to within a degree of 5% of each service tier and we'll make those figures the magic numbers for our new, never previously published, AUP in relation to our new, never previously publicly announced, Traffic Management system and we'll deem that 5% (who were blissfully unaware of there being traffic control systems in place and who had never seen our never previously published AUP) as the bad guys and those solely responsible for the introduction of Traffic Management".

Given the recently produced quarterly figures from VM it strikes me as rather "strange" as to why, rather than target this 5% and cause uproar and dissent among previously reasonably happy & satisfied customers, they didn't elect to simply terminate their contracts as is their right (even under previously unpublished AUPs) and count them as churn for the next quarter.

What do you think was the reasoning behind their not doing that?

Could it be that the 5% isn't actually 5% at all? Could it be that they've realized (shock horror) that they've committed to offering a service of twice the speed of the one they already can't deliver?

[PC_Arcade]

Could it be that the 5% isn't actually 5% at all? Could it be that they've realized (shock horror) that they've committed to offering a service of twice the speed of the one they already can't deliver?

That would make sense, however even with all the DPA requests in the world, you'll never get that out of VM

[Vlad_Dracul]

I have no problem with traffic shaping. I'd just like my 2mb connection to work for simple web browsing and emails....it just seems soooo slow..

[dontpannic]

Originally Posted by supercyber

yo, ur more than welcome to join lol, but at least ur putting ur reasos

not all ISPs, do it, i know 4 a fact that BE ISP, thier BE Pro serivce which £40 with 24Mbits upload and 2.4Mbits upload is Unlimited and uncapped.

same as ADSL24, but thier unlimited service is £66 ponds a month

i ordered the BE isp to my home today, i know is goona be good coz i seen it in action, so i might be saying bye bye to virgin, or i mabe keep the two. need one for businees line.

No. For that you need a BUSINESS line (http://www.ntltelewestbusiness.co.uk) not a home line. And I'd be damn suprised if you'd get anywhere NEAR 24mb's with Be!!!

---------- Post added at 10:32 ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

What do you think was the reasoning behind their not doing that?

Could it be that the 5% isn't actually 5% at all? Could it be that they've realized (shock horror) that they've committed to offering a service of twice the speed of the one they already can't deliver?

Could it be that I and I'm sure quite a few people on this forum get 19/20mb speedtests all of the time? So before you start shouting around saying Virgin cannot support the service, look at the hard facts and evidence.

Fri, 11 May 2007 09:29:33 UTC
1st 512K took 240 ms = 2133.3 KB/sec, approx 17578 Kbps, 17.17 Mbps
2nd 512K took 221 ms = 2316.7 KB/sec, approx 19090 Kbps, 18.64 Mbps
3rd 512K took 220 ms = 2327.3 KB/sec, approx 19177 Kbps, 18.73 Mbps
4th 512K took 220 ms = 2327.3 KB/sec, approx 19177 Kbps, 18.73 Mbps
Overall Average Speed = approx 18756 Kbps, 18.32 Mbps

Look above. That was my 19th speedtest all previous were at the same speeds (some a bit higher). Does that EVIDENCE look like a company who cannot provide a 20mb connection?

I don't think so. I can quite clearly see 18.32Mbps there, and I quite regularly see download speeds of 2.23MB/s from various sites.

I don't know if that is evidence enough to you that Virgin CAN provide a 20Mb connection, but I suppose there's just no pleasing some people, is there?