Creationism vs Evolution, Equal? - Page 8

Russ · 16-04-2007, 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca371

Science and faith are entirely different.

I'm sorry but that's utter rubbish. I have faith and a belief in science (so do most Christians I know), as outlined above.

Xaccers · 16-04-2007, 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

I'm sorry but that's utter rubbish. I have faith and a belief in science (so do most Christians I know), as outlined above.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "aspects of science" after all, you did say you accepted evolution, just not of humans?

Appologies if I've got that wrong.

Ramrod · 16-04-2007, 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "aspects of science" after all, you did say you accepted evolution, just not of humans?

Appologies if I've got that wrong.

Isn't that what many christians seem to do with the bible as well.......choose to accept bits as literally true and reject other bits as being merely metaphorical?

Russ · 16-04-2007, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "aspects of science" after all, you did say you accepted evolution, just not of humans?

Aspects of science, that might be more accurate. I don't believe in a lot of the closed-book stuff of science - I'm open-minded enough to be receptive to the notion that there might be something bigger than use which governs the rules of science and has plenty more up His sleeve which we are yet to understand (and indeed may never be able to).

16-04-2007, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

I'm sorry but that's utter rubbish. I have faith and a belief in science (so do most Christians I know), as outlined above.

Yeah I know what you mean. But, I'm interested in what makes you accept certain conclusions reached by scientific evidence and reasoning (e.g. we evolved), and other conclusions that are reached by faith (i.e. God exists). You have no evidence for the latter, and the ways by which the two different conclusions are reached couldn't be any more different.

Ramrod · 16-04-2007, 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

I'm open-minded enough to be receptive to the notion that there might be something bigger than use which governs the rules of science and has plenty more up His sleeve which we are yet to understand (and indeed may never be able to).

Eh? You are saying that you are open minded enough to accept what you already believe in?

---------- Post added at 17:49 ---------- Previous post was at 17:45 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

I'm sorry but that's utter rubbish. I have faith and a belief in science (so do most Christians I know), as outlined above.

It's not rubbish......faith is by definition "belief that is not based on proof" whilst science is "systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation"

Russ · 16-04-2007, 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca371

Yeah I know what you mean. But, I'm interested in what makes you accept certain conclusions reached by scientific evidence and reasoning (e.g. we evolved), and other conclusions that are reached by faith (i.e. God exists). You have no evidence for the latter, and the ways by which the two different conclusions are reached couldn't be any more different.

Faith doesn't need evidence, as we've long since established. I accept the parts of science which fit in with my views and beliefs.

Some of you seem to think we regard the Bible as the complete and unabridged history of the world - not so. I believe God put in the bible all we need to know - man went and tried to work out what we wanted to know. God gave humans the gift of intelligence and we've tried to use it to explain how things are. In many ways we're successful, in others not so.

You say about 'how we evolved'. Quite simply, we didn't. There's no evidence we came from apes. Admittedly there's a compelling argument, but there's always the good old 'missing link' which I jokingly refer to as the 'non-existent link'. Not seen it in a while but there's a site which gives a good argument against the notion of human evolution from primates, will try and find it later.

Anyway I am willing to accept there is more to science than we will ever understand or are capable of understanding. Science doesn't know everything, that's not to say science knows nothing, but it's important to differentiate between what science knows and what it believes.

**Damien** · 16-04-2007, 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

Aspects of science, that might be more accurate. I don't believe in a lot of the closed-book stuff of science - I'm open-minded enough to be receptive to the notion that there might be something bigger than use which governs the rules of science and has plenty more up His sleeve which we are yet to understand (and indeed may never be able to).

This is what I dont understand, well one of the things. If there is a god then it would govern science so why is there any problem. Why cant evolution have happened but it have been gods intention? I dont see why they cannot work perfectly well together, There are many scientists who are religious.

Its cases like the one this topic was based on that cause confusion and division. Trying to push a theory which less evidence against a established scientific 'fact' as if they are equally likely. The guy behind the museum even tried to claim dinosaurs were not meat eaters until Adam and Eve...Dinosaurs existed so long before us

If you ask me, which you didnt but still, the bible (or literal interpretation of it) is the biggest conflict between religion and science and the biggest obstacle to people becoming part of a faith. Since science has never proven that a god does not exist, but it has proven that some sections of the bible are impossible. Its when that confilict happens that causes these problems.

If there was no bible or better yet people did not take for fact then there would be no problem. Everything science proved would be created by god in the mind of those who believe in him and for the rest of us it would be whatever.

Russ · 16-04-2007, 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

This is what I dont understand, well one of the things. If there is a god then it would govern science so why is there any problem.

That's not for you to decide though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

Why cant evolution have happened but it have been gods intention? I dont see why they cannot work perfectly well together, There are many scientists who are religious.

And a good thing too! The reason why it would not have happened (if you're asking me which you seem to be doing) is He created us in His own image.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

Its cases like the one this topic was based on that cause confusion and division. Trying to push a theory which less evidence against a established scientific 'fact' as if they are equally likely. The guy behind the museum even tried to claim dinosaurs were not meat eaters until Adam and Eve...Dinosaurs existed so long before us

You're falling in to the trap of assuming that all Christian believe exactly the same things - not so. Faith is personal. And I disagree with your last assertion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

If you ask me, which you didnt but still, the bible (or literal interpretation of it) is the biggest conflict between religion and science and the biggest obstacle to people becoming part of a faith.

Nah, I'd say it's misunderstanding and ignorance of the bible which causes that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

Since science has never proven that a god does not exist, but it has proven that some sections of the bible are impossible.

Which parts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

If there was no bible or better yet people did not take for fact then there would be no problem.

It's unlike you to be as opressive that, and I'm very surprised. Surely greater understanding of the bible and connected beliefs then there would be no problem. And that understanding should take place on both sides IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

Everything science proved would be created by god in the mind of those who believe in him and for the rest of us it would be whatever.

You make it sound as if God has to be governed and explained by science.

Ramrod · 16-04-2007, 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

You make it sound as if God has to be governed and explained by science.

I'd not thought of that before. I suppose he does have to be governed/explained by science (if he exists)

Xaccers · 16-04-2007, 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

And a good thing too! The reason why it would not have happened (if you're asking me which you seem to be doing) is He created us in His own image.

Could it not be that he created us in his image through evolution?

Russ · 16-04-2007, 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Could it not be that he created us in his image through evolution?

My view is that He would have no need for that. Evolutions seems to be on the whole, an adaption based on environment. Genesis states He created us at the dawn of time in His image and there's nothing to suggest a deviation of that. God would not have to evolve (to suggest He does would imply He is subject to a power or need higher than Himself which would be contradictory) so I see no reason to believe we would evolve in order to 'keep up'.

Xaccers · 16-04-2007, 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

My view is that He would have no need for that. Evolutions seems to be on the whole, an adaption based on environment. Genesis states He created us at the dawn of time in His image and there's nothing to suggest a deviation of that. God would not have to evolve (to suggest He does would imply He is subject to a power or need higher than Himself which would be contradictory) so I see no reason to believe we would evolve in order to 'keep up'.

If that holds true, then why the need for other animals to evolve?

Russ · 16-04-2007, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

If that holds true, then why the need for other animals to evolve?

Did I not mention that earlier? The world is in decay and I believe some have needed to adapt in order to survive. The Bible makes it clear we are superior to animals (in an entirely respectful way of course) and we have no requirement to do the same as we are pretty adaptive as is.

Xaccers · 16-04-2007, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

Did I not mention that earlier? The world is in decay and I believe some have needed to adapt in order to survive. The Bible makes it clear we are superior to animals (in an entirely respectful way of course) and we have no requirement to do the same as we are pretty adaptive as is.

And the differences between the subspecies of humans?