NTL late payment fee scam

[chrisjj]

> I don't pay the NTL bill in this house but I'm sure
> there must be a "cut-off date"

I think you are mistaken.

But do please check your bill and tell us if you find one.

[Mr Angry]

Thanks for clarifying that, much appreciated.

Assuming you pay / have paid the charge.

Your next step is to challenge the legality of the charge. Simply state that the fee, as described in their own literature and terminology as a "late payment fee", constitutes a "penalty charge" and that you are aware that under existing consumer contract law such charges are unenforcable unless the charging party can quantify the fee levied.

Invite them to provide you with a breakdown detailing the costs they have incurred, specifically in respect of the human intervention involved, in respect of this so called fee and advise them that if they refuse to do so you are quite prepared to exercise your rights and will seek restitution through the courts - for which you will seek reimbursement of your legal costs.

[chrisjj]

> NTL are asking you to pay your bill as soon as you receive
> the paper bill so that no mis-haps can occur that may
> cause you to incur a penalty.

The penalty that that have no right to charge anyway?

[colin1234]

Dont know if i`m right with this or not,been a few months since i`ve been with ntl,but i thought you had to pay for at least some of your services in advance?maybe i`m wrong,i am getting old and i`ve been known to be wrong before ,but if not, how can it be a late payment charge if your paying in advance?

[scrotnig]

Originally Posted by colin1234

Dont know if i`m right with this or not,been a few months since i`ve been with ntl,but i thought you had to pay for at least some of your services in advance?maybe i`m wrong,i am getting old and i`ve been known to be wrong before ,but if not, how can it be a late payment charge if your paying in advance?

An old old argument that's completely wrong I'm afraid.

It's the BILL that is late. For all it matters legally, the services could relate to 12 months time.

As an example, if you take out a 12 month subscription to a magazine, you can't withhold payments on the grounds that you haven't yet received all the magazines.

An ntl bill is technically an invoice due under the terms and conditions the customer agreed to when they joined. Any customer who does not accept those terms and conditions should cancel their services, rather than try and get them changed to suit themselves.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by scrotnig

An old old argument that's completely wrong I'm afraid.

It's the BILL that is late. For all it matters legally, the services could relate to 12 months time.

As an example, if you take out a 12 month subscription to a magazine, you can't withhold payments on the grounds that you haven't yet received all the magazines.

An ntl bill is technically an invoice due under the terms and conditions the customer agreed to when they joined. Any customer who does not accept those terms and conditions should cancel their services, rather than try and get them changed to suit themselves.

The semantics of the billing cycle are irrelevant. The legal stand point is, as you pointed out, the terms and conditions the customer agreed to when they joined. Those terms and conditions are governed by consumer contract law which states that penalty fees, specifically late payment penalty fees, are unenforcable.

There is a very distinct difference between exercising ones right as a consumer who is party to contract law and trying to trying to change the terms of a contract to suit oneself.

[Paul K]

Originally Posted by chrisjj

The penalty that that have no right to charge anyway?

Well the only other way they can enforce the payment of bills would then be suspension of services. Would you prefer that to happen instead?
Oh and please use the quote buttons as it makes it easier to understand the flow of the thread.

chrisjj, you say you paid the bill on the 29th December 2006 - may I ask how you paid.

If you paid by cheque in the post, as it was the last working day of 2006, NTL probably did not have receive the cheque until the 3rd/5th January (Wednesday/Friday), depending if you sent it 1st/2nd class. On the back of my NTL bill, it states "please allow 5 working days for your cheque to be credited", which takes it up to 10th/12th January, for a bill you received on the 1st December.

Did the January bill have your payment on it?

btw, you may find this link useful - same thing with Telewest Linky

[Paul K]

About as useful as the search link I posted last night http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...24&postcount=5

Sorry, Paul - didn't click through on the Google linky <my bad>

[scrotnig]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

The semantics of the billing cycle are irrelevant. The legal stand point is, as you pointed out, the terms and conditions the customer agreed to when they joined. Those terms and conditions are governed by consumer contract law which states that penalty fees, specifically late payment penalty fees, are unenforcable.

There is a very distinct difference between exercising ones right as a consumer who is party to contract law and trying to trying to change the terms of a contract to suit oneself.

However the company does have the legal right to charge a fee to cover its costs in enforcing the payment of the bill, and these costs must be reasonable. You'll notice the credit card companies have started using £12 as a ballpark figure after the recent rulings, therefore it's a fair bet that £10 would be equally deemed reasonable to cover the increased costs involved in chasing a debt.

Having said that, as has already been pointed out, if the charges DO turn out to be illegal, there is only one alternative...doing what the credit card companies do and printing a "payment must be RECEIVED by" date on the bill, which would be 14 days after the bill date (it did used to appear on them at one time). If payment is not RECEIVED and CLEARED by that time - the services go off, no warnings, no negotiation, and will NOT be reinstated until the money is received.

THAT would be 100% legal and if these companies' hand is forced, that is what we'll get.

At the end of the day, people should pay the damned bill and stop trying to take the mickey. If they can't afford to pay, then cancel the services. Late payments simply put up MY bill, which I object to! Why should I subsidise loafers and shirkers?

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by scrotnig

However the company does have the legal right to charge a fee to cover its costs in enforcing the payment of the bill, and these costs must be reasonable.

Enforcing the payment of a bill is entirely different from awaiting payment of a bill. Should a company elect to engage a third party to enforce the payment of a bill then they are within their rights to pass the associated cost to the debtor.

Originally Posted by scrotnig

You'll notice the credit card companies have started using £12 as a ballpark figure after the recent rulings, therefore it's a fair bet that £10 would be equally deemed reasonable to cover the increased costs involved in chasing a debt.

The £12.00 is not "deemed reasonable" in law - nor was it a ruling. It is simply the opinion of the OFT who mooted it as a threshold charge. The OFT further go on to state that "a court will certainly not consider that a default fee is fair just because it is below the threshold."

Of all the banks and credit card companies who have been challenged on this matter not one has felt confident enough to offer a settlent based on deductions made for "a reasonable" £12.00 per charge. That, in conjunction with the aforementioned legal reference made by the OFT, tells us something.

Originally Posted by scrotnig

Having said that, as has already been pointed out, if the charges DO turn out to be illegal, there is only one alternative...doing what the credit card companies do and printing a "payment must be RECEIVED by" date on the bill, which would be 14 days after the bill date (it did used to appear on them at one time). If payment is not RECEIVED and CLEARED by that time - the services go off, no warnings, no negotiation, and will NOT be reinstated until the money is received.

That would certainly be a much more logical procedure to follow. However, based on consumer ignorance as far as their rights go, NTL are quite happy to continue charging and banking monies accrued on the basis of an illegal "Late payment fee".

I say "illegal" because until such time as NTL provide a factual breakdown of the costs they maintain late payment cost them to administer we can only assume they have something to hide. I mean to say, if someone at NTL has actually sat down and figured out that it cost them £10.00 (exactly, strangely enough) for each late payment then why don't they just agree to have that breakdown scrutinized in a court of law the next time someone threatens them with court action? Perhaps that's just a bit too logical for NTL?

Originally Posted by scrotnig

At the end of the day, people should pay the damned bill and stop trying to take the mickey. If they can't afford to pay, then cancel the services. Late payments simply put up MY bill, which I object to! Why should I subsidise loafers and shirkers?

Your issue at the end of the day is with NTL, not late payers. As you yourself have pointed out above there is an easy remedy to this - no payment, no services. It would appear, however, that the prospect of making a legally dubious ten pounds extra from late payers is more important to NTL than providing you or me with value for money.

[AntiSilence]

Originally Posted by scrotnig

Pay the bill on time and there'll be no fee.

I can never understand why people agree to pay something by a certain date, then object to the company charging them when they don't

It's not always by choice that someone makes a late payment you know. After I was made redundant from my last job, it took me 3 months to find another one. But this new job was now paid monthly on the 25th of every month, which made me unable to pay my ntl bill at the correct time, and I had several late payment fees. I phoned ntl up to ask them if they would change my bill date, but they said no. When we moved house, and had the services transfered, the bill date changed and now it's just after I get paid which is perfect for me.

[Mr K]

I was charged a £10 late payment fee in January and I pay by Direct Debit !! There was no problem with my bank, the payment went through ok. Can only assume it was to do with the change of billing dates/systems in January, but thats hardly my fault. Queried it with them, after a long pause, they said I'd be credited next month (they didn't sound too confident about it though - I'll wait and see....). Shouldn't think its a 'scam', more likely the usual shambles/incompetency from NTL.

[scrotnig]

Originally Posted by AntiSilence

It's not always by choice that someone makes a late payment you know. After I was made redundant from my last job, it took me 3 months to find another one. But this new job was now paid monthly on the 25th of every month, which made me unable to pay my ntl bill at the correct time, and I had several late payment fees. I phoned ntl up to ask them if they would change my bill date, but they said no. When we moved house, and had the services transfered, the bill date changed and now it's just after I get paid which is perfect for me.

Whilst I fully sympathise, and I don't mean to sound harsh, however, none of this is ntl's problem and if you can't pay the bill you can't have the services.

I don't wish to sound unsympathetic in any way, but it does no harm to remember that companies generally aren't interested in this sort of thing - they just want the money. That's the way it is.

Originally Posted by Mr K

I was charged a £10 late payment fee in January and I pay by Direct Debit !! There was no problem with my bank, the payment went through ok. Can only assume it was to do with the change of billing dates/systems in January, but thats hardly my fault. Queried it with them, after a long pause, they said I'd be credited next month (they didn't sound too confident about it though - I'll wait and see....). Shouldn't think its a 'scam', more likely the usual shambles/incompetency from NTL.

They can't change your billing/collection date then charge you a late payment fee. Make sure you push this as hard as you can, you've been shabbily treated and ripped off. What's more, you also need to check they haven't recorded this "late payment" on your credit file. When I worked there, this was automatic. Well worth a check.