Traffic Shaping (again)

[RXP]

Originally Posted by etccarmageddon

"Luckily for us the law determines are rights and obligations under contract."

as you pay them on a monthly basis - either £18, £25 or £35 - what exactly are you going to claim for if you take them to court?

it's not like you're a company who've shelled out £10k for an annual subscription of a leased line only to find they've reduced the service significantly part way through the year. you're buying a retail service and paying no more than £35 a month for it. the biggest claim you could make would be £35?

The term is for 12 months, since shaping started a couple months ago if NTL would not let me terminate their service without penality I would sue for compensatory damages of 9 months x £35 and win. And under contract law consideration is consideration. It doesn't matter if it's £0.50p or £1bn. It's the principle here that NTL are doing what they want without telling their customers or inserting updated provisions in the contract.

Cause in all honesty I'm not bothered by the awful 512k speeds on a 10mbit service at prime time. All I want is fast downloads in non prime time. Part of me just wants them to refuse a termination and take it to court, it'd be fun.

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 ----------

Originally Posted by Zeph

Erm yes there is a FUP...

Please cite it. I cannot find anything on NTL's website and when I signed up there was none.

[Colli]

Hopefully NTL will get back w/ us next
week w/ a fix. They've admitted they made some "router changes" on nodes
with "heavy downloaders" but so far that's all we've heard.

to me that sounds like the heavy downloaders are impacting other users service levels and so ntl have every right to slow them down to make it a more level playing field for everyone in that area

That's all very well and good, but surely the "router changes" that NTL have made on these particular nodes will affect some people who aren't regarded as heavy downloaders.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by RXP

If a FUP is in a contract 6 years old it has no bearing on contracts presently. That is why I had to assume that you were on a 6 year contract, otherwise the reference to the FUP of 6 years ago is irrelevant. Which was, infact, the case.

The contract, as I said, is rolling. It is (therefore) renewed annually, and the terms and conditions in force at the time the contract is renewed apply. The FUP I mentioned DOES have a bearing because it is exactly what NTL are doing. If you look at the terms and conditions (which, if you are on a rolling contract and have not cancelled, you are deemed to have accepted), they DO also make reference to measures to control heavy use.

[RXP]

20. Use of the Network (Internet Services)

20.2 Data Usage
Nobody may use the Internet Services, either directly or indirectly in excess of the usage allowances set out in this section.

Our Internet Services are intended for normal recreational or educational use by individuals and families and our pricing and network architecture have been designed accordingly. Customers who exceed the usage allowances applicable to the Internet Services may reduce the performance of the network for other customers.

In the event that you exceed the usage allowances applicable to your Internet Services, we reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to reduce, suspend or terminate your Internet Services. During any period of reduction or suspension, you will remain liable for the payment of your Internet Services charges at the original level. We also reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to re-grade your Internet Services to a different speed and/or usage allowance at the appropriate charge.

The following tables (which will be updated from time to time) set out the download speed, monthly usage allowance and price for ntl's Broadband Internet Services and ntl's Freedom Internet Services:



Broadband Internet Service

(download speed) Monthly Usage Allowance

(downstream &/or upstream) Monthly Price
512K Unlimited £14.99 1
512K Unlimited £17.99 2
2Mb Unlimited £17.99
4Mb 3 Unlimited £24.99
10Mb Unlimited £34.99

The table says it's unlmited with no FUP.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by RXP

Please cite it. I cannot find anything on NTL's website and when I signed up there was none.

From http://www.home.ntl.com/page/userpolicy section 20.2

20.2 Data Usage
Nobody may use the Internet Services, either directly or indirectly in excess of the usage allowances set out in this section.

Our Internet Services are intended for normal recreational or educational use by individuals and families and our pricing and network architecture have been designed accordingly. Customers who exceed the usage allowances applicable to the Internet Services may reduce the performance of the network for other customers.

In the event that you exceed the usage allowances applicable to your Internet Services, we reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to reduce, suspend or terminate your Internet Services. During any period of reduction or suspension, you will remain liable for the payment of your Internet Services charges at the original level. We also reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to re-grade your Internet Services to a different speed and/or usage allowance at the appropriate charge.

Also see : http://www.home.ntl.com/page/additionalinformation and http://www.home.ntl.com/page/termsresidential

Particularly sections 20 and 26 of the terms and conditions.

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 ----------

Originally Posted by RXP

The table says it's unlmited with no FUP.

That document you referred to IS the fair use policy.

[RXP]

That was my point earlier though, it's just junk. It says your use is subject to the limits applicable to 'your internet services'. Those are defined in the table. Which says it's unlimited. So my 4mbit is unlimited. So it's saying my usage is subject to the provision that I don't use it over an unlimited amount. That is just not logical.

For example further down 20.2 it says

Freedom Internet Service4

(download speed) Monthly Usage Allowance

(downstream &/or upstream) Monthly Price
Up to 1Mb 5GB £17.99
Up to 1Mb with a telephone service 30GB From £16.99p

Which provides caps for this service. So to construe this term as a whole, they clearly provide caps for the 'Freedom' service and NOT ours.

In sum, the limit to my applicable internet service is 'unlimited'. Which is non-sequitur. I know NTL used to have another provision in there for FUP a while back, because that's a reason I never went to them. Then they removed it and that's why I joined.

Still I'm not a heavy user and i'm suffering. So are tons of people in the 'speed test' thread.

Edit: and thank you Stuart for referring me to this:

[clause 26] - we reserve the right to change the terms and conditions of this Agreement and/or the Services which we provide to you as soon as is reasonably practicable by giving written notice to you prior to the changes being introduced. We will also publish details of any changes (including the operative date) in each of our main offices and/or on our website as soon as possible prior to the changes being introduced.

The changes were introduced months ago. I have still yet to receive any information. If it wasn't for 'undercover' work there wouldn't even be an announcement on this main page. They're meant to tell us even before the changes are introduced.

[Lee]

The problem with NH is related to the number of threads you need to use, not total bandwidth.

It is NTL specific, but I dont see why NTL would limit the speed on any particular thread, when you can just up the number of threads to max your connection anyway.

i.e. If I download using just the 8 'allowed' threads - slow performance 400k/s. up that to 15 or more connections and I'm back to 1.17mb/s.

Now I've used other newsgroup providers and do not have the same problem with them (as I've told NH support) so either NTL are specifically restricting connections to NH only, or its a NH problem. (or possibly something with the route NTL users take to NH).

Personally I dont think its traffic shaping or anything deliberate NTL have done. But there is a problem somewhere.

[RXP]

But NTL just said to NH that they're moving 'heavy users' to new routers. This, NH , assume is causing the crap speeds for everyone. What is meant to be helping the network is, in fact, hurting it. But yah I mainly think it's a routing problem with newshosting to NTL themselves. But it's just interesting to see that NTL were doing something funky with the routers.

Besides now that giganews has introduced SSL, no ISP will be able to shape usenet :-)

[Lee]

Originally Posted by RXP

But NTL just said to NH that they're moving 'heavy users' to new routers. This, NH , assume is causing the crap speeds for everyone. What is meant to be helping the network is, in fact, hurting it. But yah I mainly think it's a routing problem with newshosting to NTL themselves. But it's just interesting to see that NTL were doing something funky with the routers.

Besides now that giganews has introduced SSL, no ISP will be able to shape usenet :-)

I suspect NH are being fobbed off by someone in NTL to be honest. Can you imagine how hard it is to actually get to speak to someone in NTL who could investigate a problem like this?

[Xan]

Having no restrictions or controls. <<< thats what unlimited mean`s.

[bywater]

I am not sure what packet shaping is and how it is affecting peoples services but was wondering if this could be the reason why my 4Mb connection as dropped down to half a meg over the last few weeks. I am not a heavy user I don't use P2P but my browsing is slow and there is a remarkable slow down in pages loading. Called tech support kept me online for over 30mins running tests and changing things and they are sending an engineer out tommorow as they couldn't find anything wrong. I am not sure if engineer will be able to solve problem as it looks like a wider area thing at the moment. I am not happy as I pay for a 4Mb and I don't see why I should be restricted because of heavy users in my area. NTL still want to take the £24.99 for a 4Mb service but only provide not even anywhere near that speed. I can get a half a meg service from elsewhere at a lot lower cost than £24.99. I feel I'm being fleeced and ntl are fraudulantly taking money for a level of service they are not providing hoping the customer will not notice. They better take notice that people are noticing even my neighbours and those who don't know soon will when word gets around and ntl will have to start reducing peoples bills accordingly. This might be just the straw that breaks the camels back this time.

Latest Results.
Downstream570.5 Kbps( = 0.6 Mbps ) Upstream371.0 Kbps( = 0.4 Mbps

[dev]

they are giving you a connection that is said to reach 10mb, they do not guarentee you will get 10mb, the contract doesn't state that either. an 'unlimited' usage means ntl won't stop you using the connection. they can slow you down as per the contract allows.

when you buy a car, you are allowed full access to the public roads, do you complain at the government for putting in speed restrictions? thats all ntl are doing.

and regarding the "restrictions" not working, just because your speeds have slowed down, how do you know there isn't 10 customers that have gone from 100kbit to 1mbit because of ntl slowing you down?

as with all traffic shaping issues people make too much out of nothing, if you want a dedicated 10mb line that will let you max it out 24/7 and give you the right to complain/compensation when it drops, go get a leased line and pay for that

[RXP]

They breached their own damn contract, making analogies about cars and a sovereign Parliament enacting speed limits is like...... irrelevant.

Originally Posted by dev

as with all traffic shaping issues people make too much out of nothing, if you want a dedicated 10mb line that will let you max it out 24/7 and give you the right to complain/compensation when it drops, go get a leased line and pay for that

No.

I want a 4mbit line that runs at 4mbit. I also have Sky, it runs fine at 8mbit.

they can slow you down as per the contract allows.

No it doesn't. It allows them to enact whatever measures they see fit if I go over a threshold of usage. However for our services this is 'unlimited', a cap only applies to 'Freedom internet services'. Therefore they cannot slow anyone down no matter how much they use it.

[bywater]

My speeds and others are coming up regularly below 512K at present. That is not broadband. I pay for broadband I want broadband end of story.

Downstream486.2 Kbps( = 0.5 Mbps ) Upstream359.8 Kbps( = 0.4 Mbps )

[PWS]

Hi All,

Just a point to note

A contract is an agreement between two or more parties.

If one side can change the contract within the terms then so can the other.
Anyone thought of trying it out lol