Cancelation charges

[Graham F]

Originally Posted by Paul

If the new address is not servicable then you cannot be charged for the remainder of the contract. It would be different if the service was available at the new address but since you cannot have it installed then it's not your fault really is it. You could try calling NTL again and asking for a supervisor/ manager or you could wait for a passing team member to offer assistance.

not true anymore looking at the terms and conditions

3 DURATION
3.1 Our Services are subject to a minimum Initial Term starting on the date we activate the Services. You can only terminate this Agreement during the Initial Term if conditions 19.4 or 20.1 apply, otherwise we may charge you a cancellation charge which will be the charges which would have been payable to the end of the Initial Term. During the Initial Term, you may downgrade all or any of your Services to the entry level or starter package for the relevant Services by giving us one month’s written notice. We may charge you a reasonable fee for a Service downgrade.
3.2 After the minimum period, either you or we may terminate this Agreement and/or any of the Services covered by this Agreement on one month’s written notice

It looks like ntl have brought the tandc in line with telewest who always had this issue if you moved to a non serviceable area!

[Davey2006]

so they have changed there terms and conditions regarding moving as when i singed up i was told i can leave if i move to a non servicable address this was pre ntl/telewest merger.


any body no when they changed the contract.

i was told by consumer direct that i can not be held liable for me not been able to recive there service as i wanted there services but they were unable to provide them.

[MovedGoalPosts]

You should have a copy of the terms and conditions that formed your contract at the time that you signed up. If not ask ntl to supply a copy and require them to certify that those were the terms applicable at that time.

I know there are provisions in many of the T&Cs that allow ntl to vary the T&Cs. But the crux of that is that if there is a variation, for it to apply parties would need to be aware of the change, and their rights in the event of that change being significant.

Thus even if ntl have removed an abiilty to cancel the contract if less than 12 months served and you want to move house, but you wern't aware of it, I fail to see how ntl could enfoce the new T&Cs. But if you signed up on the above T&Cs, then you have no recourse.

Of course, Mr Angry when he sees this will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong.

[popper]

Originally Posted by Graham F

not true anymore looking at the terms and conditions



It looks like ntl have brought the tandc in line with telewest who always had this issue if you moved to a non serviceable area!

http://www.home.ntl.com/page/termsresidential
you didnt put the part in, that protects the other party, so its missleading, 19 and 20 are pritty clear.

the eayest one to use for your 30days i suppose, is the sep price change (see near the end,)that should be showing up on the bill now i guess.

[edit]
after re-reading the OP this is even more clear cut, NTL:tw canceled the contract, so end of story.
"Got through to esclations team and she said she would get me a install date fairly quickly and asked for my new address again and said sorry its non serviceable i will cancel the contract from the day you informed moves and transfers you will recive one fianl bil and thats that."


ofcourse regarding Cancelation charges and the T&C , it does state
'we may charge you a cancellation charge', not 'we WILL', they dont have to make a charge if they dont want to.

if they want to get funny about it, you could if you were so minded(depends how much they wind you up i guess),always use the 4% above base rate interest NTL:tw clause(6.2) to claim back any and all overpayments/wrong/unlawful charges placed on your account at that contracted rate
perhaps even compounded('may also charge daily interest',and whats good for them in also good for us) , see
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...html#post51269.

heres a copy i posted about the 19/20
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...7#post34120307

Originally Posted by popper

Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982
http://www.netlawman.co.uk/acts/supp...s-act-1982.php

CONSUMER PROTECTION

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...ts-90-day.html
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...tutes-library/

http://www.home.ntl.com/page/termsresidential
<snip>
as for the T&Cs theres that little thing called the law about not being a valid clause unless it gives equal rights to both partys along side all the other rights the comsumer already has by default.....
notice the lack of the word reasonable in the users favour but its there in favour of the NTL part of the contract...

"3. Duration
3.1 Our Services are subject to a minimum Initial Term starting on the date we activate the Services. You can only terminate this Agreement during the Initial Term if conditions 19.4 or 20.1 apply, otherwise we may charge you a cancellation charge which will be the charges which would have been payable to the end of the Initial Term. During the Initial Term, you may downgrade all or any of your Services to the entry level or starter package for the relevant Services by giving us one month's written notice. We may charge you a reasonable fee for a Service downgrade.
3.2 After the minimum period, either you or we may terminate this Agreement and/or any of the Services covered by this Agreement on one month's written notice."

"19.4 As well as your other rights, you shall have the right to terminate this Agreement by notice to us in writing if we fail to perform or observe any obligation under this Agreement and (in the case of a breach capable of remedy) we fail to remedy the breach within the reasonable time specified by you in your written notice requiring us to do so. Subject to Condition 22, you shall also have the right in these circumstances to claim against us for any losses and expenses which directly result from such breach by us."

"20. Cancellation Rights
You may cancel the Services without penalty in the following circumstances:-

if we increase our Charges you may cancel those Services in respect of which the Charges have increased by giving us one month's notice in writing within 30 days of the earlier of:
(a) such price increase being notified to you under Condition 6.2; or
(b) the date of your first bill following such price increase, irrespective of whether the minimum period in respect of those Services has expired. If you cancel Services under this Condition, the increased Charges relating to those Services will not apply to you;

if we significantly reduce the content of the Services or make any significant change to the terms and conditions of this Agreement under Condition 26, you may terminate this Agreement by giving us one month's notice in writing within 30 days of such change irrespective of whether the minimum period in respect of such Services has expired. "
"
22. Limitation of Liability
22.1 In performing any obligation under this Agreement our only duty is to exercise the reasonable skill and care of a competent provider of telecommunications and television services.
22.2 We will not, and our suppliers and licensors will not, be liable under this Agreement for any loss or damage which:

arises other than through our negligence or the negligence of our employees, agents or contractors or our breach of this Agreement; or
is not a reasonably foreseeable consequence of our negligence or our breach of this Agreement; or
is any business loss including loss of revenue, profits or anticipated savings; or
is for wasted expense or data being lost or harmed.
22.3 We do not restrict or exclude our liability for:

personal injury or death directly caused by Us or our employees whilst acting in the course of their employment with us;
physical damage to your personal property up to £100,000 due to any one event or series of connected events where such damage is due to our negligence or the negligence of our employees, agents or contractors acting in the course of their employment with us;
any of our liabilities which cannot by law be excluded or restricted. "

"29. Waiver
The failure by either you or us to exercise or enforce any right under this Agreement shall not be deemed to be a waiver of such right or to bar the exercise or enforcement of it or any other right."


"30. Notices
Notices given under this Agreement should be delivered by hand or by prepaid first class post or electronic mail either:

to us: at the address on this Agreement or on the last invoice or to an alternative address notified to you;
to you: at the address in this Agreement or to an alternative address notified to us. Alternatively, if you take the Television Service or Internet Services we may deliver notices to you by sending them via the ntl Network so that they are displayed on your television or computer screen. "
"
31. Law
This Agreement is subject to the laws of the place in which you live."

http://www.home.ntl.com/page/customerupdate
"
1 September 2006 Price Change Customer update: FAQs


On 1 September 2006, some of ntl's prices are changing. ntl is committed to communicating clearly with all of its customers. As with any change, you may have some questions."


that will do for a start anyway...............

---------- Post added at 23:39 ---------- Previous post was at 21:59 ----------

ohh, one last fact that you might comment on:
http://www.home.ntl.com/page/customerupdate
"
Why should I move to paying with Direct Debit?
It's cheaper. Apart from eliminating the expense and hassle of mailing cheques, it takes advantage of our Direct Debit discount "

in british law a Direct Debit is tantermount to a cash payment
so should the PP cash user also get this stated NTL discount as well!.

[Mr Angry]

NTL can change their T&C's all they like but the fact still remains that your rights under Consumer Contract law haven't been changed. This falls under unfair terms in consumer contracts.

[MovedGoalPosts]

I mention his name and he appears

But, regardless of when the t&cs were changed, although it may appear to be an unfair term under consumer law, has that ever been tested / proven? Is this cited as a specific example of an unfair term that if the customer moves house before the end of his / her minimum contract term, they should be let off the rest of the contract? ntl clearly do not see that there is a problem, after all (playing devils advocate) it's not ntl's fault that you wanted (had) to move house.

[King Of Fools]

Originally Posted by Davey2006

so they have changed there terms and conditions regarding moving as when i singed up i was told i can leave if i move to a non servicable address this was pre ntl/telewest merger.

any body no when they changed the contract.

Searcing the forums suggests that the contract changed before February 2005!

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...ad.php?t=24651

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by King Of Fools

Searcing the forums suggests that the contract changed before February 2005!

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...ad.php?t=24651

This was never in the t&cs at all. ntl not charging you if you moved to a non-servicable area before your first 12 months were up was a discretionary action which was never documented. In January 2005, they chose not to use this discretionary action and make it part of their t&cs that you had to pay the minimum cost for a full 12 months. The problem being that the cost of installing a new sub needs to be covered, which it certainly isn't by the average RGU in the first year. I think they should just sell their stbs to the customer like Sky do and get on with it now.

[popper]

Originally Posted by orangebird

This was never in the t&cs at all. ntl not charging you if you moved to a non-servicable area before your first 12 months were up was a discretionary action which was never documented. In January 2005, they chose not to use this discretionary action and make it part of their t&cs that you had to pay the minimum cost for a full 12 months. The problem being that the cost of installing a new sub needs to be covered, which it certainly isn't by the average RGU in the first year. I think they should just sell their stbs to the customer like Sky do and get on with it now.

Hi OB.
Yeah, as iv been saying, over the longer term, it can only be a good thing if NTL:tw were to open up their network, even if it were to so called select providers, after all that way the commercial incentive would then be geared towards giving the users new and sellable options and at the select providers cost (we all know its eventually pasted onto the user in the end).

even before you take into consideration the future select commercial partys offerings, PCI DVB-C(2),USB,and even STBs with IPTV DVB direct to your PC at £99, theres a lot of perfectly good and working , unused (ex) C&W/NTL/TW STBs out there, that even today are still in the current computer system that if you were to reconnect them to the network NTL:tw could reactivate/associate to a new PAYG cable offering for instance,and start collecting new profits.

tap into an already existing cheap system, a simple paypoint card or even a mobile phone type payment card for instance.

everyone wins.

[Stuart]

While I agree with the sentiments expressed by both Orangebird and popper, would people please bear in mind that the OP is moving to an uncabled area, so any discussion of NTL opening up their network is both irrelevant and off topic.

[Davey2006]

Been reading the last few posts and one thing that strikes me is the fact the T&C say we may charge u , so that meens they have discretion to end the contract if they wish. my property was already enabled when i moved in so there was no cost to Ntl to create my custum.

The sales man who singed me up even said we can cancel your contract if u move to non servicable area so are they as misinformed as we are ?

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Stuart C

While I agree with the sentiments expressed by both Orangebird and popper, would people please bear in mind that the OP is moving to an uncabled area, so any discussion of NTL opening up their network is both irrelevant and off topic.

I wasn't tallking about opening the network up, just thinking out loud that if ntl were to sell their stbs as a way of covering some of the installation costs instead of holding people to a 12 month contract, it would be easier all round...

---------- Post added at 13:24 ---------- Previous post was at 13:21 ----------

Originally Posted by Davey2006

Been reading the last few posts and one thing that strikes me is the fact the T&C say we may charge u , so that meens they have discretion to end the contract if they wish. my property was already enabled when i moved in so there was no cost to Ntl to create my custum.

Of course there's a cost - even if the property was alrteady cabled, and the cost of sending an engineer out to your house to complete the end of the install is present, the hardware, the manhours it takes to administer your account etc etc etc. There is a cost to EVERY install.

The sales man who singed me up even said we can cancel your contract if u move to non servicable area so are they as misinformed as we are ?

No, sadly, there are some unscrupulous buggers out there that just want to get you connected and get their commision. If they told you you had to pay for the full 12 months regardless, would you have signed up? My feeling is NO, and I can almost guarantee that was probably the salespersons feeling too.

[Davey2006]

So I have Benn lied to or mislead on at least 2 ocasions, When i singed up and when the escalations team canceled my contract .
canceled in may recived statement in june they owed me money whitch they refunded me no statement in jully in aug a bill with cancelation charges on.

they added them on 31 jully .

how can they add charges whren u have settled the account and its closed?

[popper]

Originally Posted by Stuart C

While I agree with the sentiments expressed by both Orangebird and popper, would people please bear in mind that the OP is moving to an uncabled area, so any discussion of NTL opening up their network is both irrelevant and off topic.

fair do's Stuart, (but i think i did my part in helping him and future readers to get a little slack................).

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Davey2006

So I have Benn lied to or mislead on at least 2 ocasions, When i singed up and when the escalations team canceled my contract .
canceled in may recived statement in june they owed me money whitch they refunded me no statement in jully in aug a bill with cancelation charges on.

they added them on 31 jully .

how can they add charges whren u have settled the account and its closed?

The best thing I think you can do is go to the CAB and ask their advice. From past experience, if you mention you're consulting with them, ntl generally crumble at this point and do as you ask them. But do put everything in writing (if you haven't done so already).