[Merged] Arafat Dead.

Originally Posted by TigaSefi

No, an Israeli and yes there a difference , my mother is not Jewish. And I like Sharon, he a hardliner.

Sorry, should've been more careful with my words, I know there's a difference

For what it's worth, I tend to agree with what you're saying about Arafat. I'll find it hard to miss him. He has been fatally over-playing his hand for 15 years now and the Palestinians need to find themselves a national identity that is not defined by a self-appointed President whose only qualifications are in blowing people up. He has been a liability to the Palestinian cause ever since he sided with Saddam Hussein during Gulf War I - possibly the stupidest thing I have ever seen a so-called leader do, ever.

The above, incidentally, does not sum up my opinion on the whole Arab/Israeli situation. I just really don't like Yasser Arafat.

[Xaccers]

Anyone got statistics of the number of deliberate IDF attacks against civilians ordered by the Israli goverment against attacks ordered by the Israili goverment against militants?
And also the same of the palestinians (attacks against civilians against attacks against military)
I wonder which chunk of those pie charts would be the biggest?

[TigaSefi]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Sorry, should've been more careful with my words, I know there's a difference

For what it's worth, I tend to agree with what you're saying about Arafat. I'll find it hard to miss him. He has been fatally over-playing his hand for 15 years now and the Palestinians need to find themselves a national identity that is not defined by a self-appointed President whose only qualifications are in blowing people up. He has been a liability to the Palestinian cause ever since he sided with Saddam Hussein during Gulf War I - possibly the stupidest thing I have ever seen a so-called leader do, ever.

The above, incidentally, does not sum up my opinion on the whole Arab/Israeli situation. I just really don't like Yasser Arafat.

Exactly my point, Arafat isn't and hasn't been good for the whole middle eastern and as a person, he will not be missed and i won't exactly be firing in the air celebrating with my gun as it some ppl's wont but I'll have a quiet satisfaction.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Anyone got statistics of the number of deliberate IDF attacks against civilians ordered by the Israli goverment against attacks ordered by the Israili goverment against militants?
And also the same of the palestinians (attacks against civilians against attacks against military)
I wonder which chunk of those pie charts would be the biggest?

Don't get me wrong, I know Sharon's principal qualification for the job is blowing people up too ... just trying to stay on topic for once, and the topic is the imminent demise of a man the Palestinians will be better off without, IMHO. The proof of the pudding is the mess they are going to be in in the short term, seeing as he has made no arrangements for his succession. What kind of leader runs the show like that? An egotist and a megalomaniac is who, not someone who genuinely wants to nurture his people and build his nation.

[punky]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Sharon (evil, zionist, imperialist, blah blah blah) trying to pull Israeli settlers out of the West Bank and Gaza, even against their wishes? And even won approval for it in the (zionist, evil, child-eating, blah blah blah) parliment?

[zovat]

If (when) Arafat dies, it could either be good or bad....

Arafat was making some noises towards peace (very quietly, but at least he was less vocal in support of siuicide bombers), and the situation seems (to someone who only watches the news) to be improving.
(This may not be the case, as experience has taught me that the news only reports a small percentage of the violence for fear of worrying us poor punters )

As he has left no official successor, there could be a power struggle, and that could lead to Hamas having more power than they have at the moment (remember that Hamas and the PLO are not talking to each other these days), and a return to the days of unofficial war.
On the other hand, a more moderate leader could come to power and finally start talking to this Israelis and working towards a real peace.

This situation is neither clear, nor simple... Israel has targeted civilians in retaliation, and also in error. The palestinians have targeted civilians regularly.
The palestinians will tell you they are fighting to get their land and identity back from an oppressive neighbour.
The Israelis will say that they are fighting terrorists and defending their right to exist.

There will be no simple and quick solution to this, as it is far too ingrained on the psyche of both nations (rather like the hatred between Catholics/Protestants in Northern Ireland- it has taken a long time to get to where we are today) and there are too many "war crimes" on both sides to allow for an instant end.

Even when (if) a peace is achieved, there will be suspicion and mistrust, as well as the odd die hard who cannot give up the fight...

I hope that this leads to peace, as I have seen enough of war to want peace wherever possible, but I think that this will take a long time to happen, and will cost the lives of too many innocent people.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by punky

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Sharon (evil, zionist, imperialist, blah blah blah) trying to pull Israeli settlers out of the West Bank and Gaza, even against their wishes? And even won approval for it in the (zionist, evil, child-eating, blah blah blah) parliment?

Yes, and the political analysts reckon it's because otherwise he'll be in charge of a country where the israeli population is smaller than the palestinian population.
Split off an area full of palestinians and pull the israelis back and the problem's sorted.
Unfortunately, you have the extremists who don't want to leave, being backed up by generally young americans.
If they start shooting at the IDF when the settlements are being dismantaled you could have a civil war (please don't do it in the next couple of weeks while I'm over there!)

Well whatever anyone might say and I'm the last to defend any form of terrorism at least Sein Fein never used suicide bombers.

I have no time for any form of terrorism but it does not excuse Sharon and his ilk from the way in which they have pushed at the situation for years.Experience has taught everyone else that yes you say no firmly to terrorists but you do not then turn around and use harsher,more violent ways of dealing with the situation BECAUSE IT DOES NOT WORK AND WILL JUST EXACBERATE A SITUATION FURTHER.

Both sides are guilty of not wanting or appearing to want to sort the postion out at all.Blood and vengeance seem to be the order of the day,not conciliation.

And in the middle of all this two generations of the two sides are growing up learning to hate even more and any moderate voices are just ignored.

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by TigaSefi

Andygrif,

John Kerry or Bush on strong issues ? there isn't much choice when it came down to it. John Kerry wasn't as sure on issues and Bush is however misguided it is. Under John Kerry I think he would be a weak president overseas. Now if Democrats had a good candidate then I would have preferred that person.

Well I see where you're coming from, but I still don't see how you can think that Bush is "good for the Middle East".

I agree Kerry was not the strongest candidate, but he was a popular choice for the very reason you say he wouldn't be strong. Bush's foreign policy is very favourable to Isreal, but that's about where the list ends...unless you class Hawaii as foreign.

Originally Posted by TigaSefi

Exactly my point, Arafat isn't and hasn't been good for the whole middle eastern and as a person, he will not be missed and i won't exactly be firing in the air celebrating with my gun as it some ppl's wont but I'll have a quiet satisfaction.

Let's be adult about this. Both Arafat and Sharon are megalomaniacal individuals. The one thing Arafat has done is get pretty much the whole of Middle East "on-side" by playing the victim.

The one thing Sharon has done is alienate himself from the majority of the civilized world.

[Xaccers]

Just heard that Israel may change it's policy on censorship of terrorist bombings and actually show the world how bad each attack actually is.

[TigaSefi]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Just heard that Israel may change it's policy on censorship of terrorist bombings and actually show the world how bad each attack actually is.

Where ?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by TigaSefi

Where ?

From a friend of mine in Tel Aviv, she happened to call me around 5pm as I'm off out there later this month

[BBKing]

Arafat was making some noises towards peace (very quietly, but at least he was less vocal in support of siuicide bombers), and the situation seems (to someone who only watches the news) to be improving.

The nice thing about Arafat was that he's gone through the classic terrorist-to-statesman process - often happens to terrorists who don't get killed - the hot-headedness goes and the realisation dawns that talking is the only thing that actually works (of course what you want to do is find the talking ones earlier). At this point you can get somewhere, presuming that some idiot doesn't murder the person you're talking to, as happened to Yitzhak Rabin (a conservative right wing Israeli killed him, remember).

Remember that 'we don't talk to terrorists' only applies for a given value of 'terrorist'.

Bush is good for the Middle East if what you think the Middle East needs is more fundamentalists trying to bring about Armageddon.

For my views on the subject read littlejohns column in the Sun today.

Everyhting else I feel about it is unprintable, and thats from Both sides Israel and palestine, they are both as bad as each other.

[BBKing]

For my views on the subject read littlejohns column in the Sun today.

Why, do you ghost-write for the bigoted nerk?