Michael Moore caught lying again - Page 3

Mr_love_monkey · 03-08-2004, 14:30

In my opinion - patriotism is protecting your country - not the government of your country - if your government is doing wrong then it is patriotic to try and stop it, to save yoru country.

The majority of quotes regarding patriotism refer to governments misusing the idea of patriotism to further their own wants and needs - not true patriotism.

Too many people mistake doing what the government tells you, and what the government tells you is right, with patriotism.
Patriotism is being able to stand infront of your government and say 'no, this is wrong, I do not want my country represented in this way'.

downquark1 · 03-08-2004, 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_love_monkey

In my opinion - patriotism is protecting your country - not the government of your country - if your government is doing wrong then it is patriotic to try and stop it, to save yoru country.

Patriotism = environmentalism ??

Xaccers · 03-08-2004, 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

Patriotism = environmentalism ??

Partially.
It's stading up for your own country if people are unjustifiably trying to put it down.
It's admitting that there's something wrong with your country and then doing something to set it right.
It's fighting to the death to prevent an external force eradicating or even just changing your country against the wishes of the people.

Take our soldiers who fought in WW1 and WW2, they didn't do it because the goverment asked them to, they did it because as patriots they weren't going to let some foreign army barge in and change Britain.
The Polish airmen who risked and gave their lives defending us did so because as patriots, they saw it as a step towards freeing Poland.

Sure, patriotism is one of those wooly words like honour, and valour that's hard to totally pin down because it's quite personal.

Ramrod · 03-08-2004, 15:25

"Love of and devotion to one's country"
"Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country."
"love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it"
(from dictionary.com)

....in other words, a good thing--but it can be harnessed to unscrupulous ends by, amongst others, politicians.

punky · 03-08-2004, 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

I saw him vs O'reilly and I was very disappointed he should really have done better.

Really? Do you know whwn it was or have a video of it? I'd like to see that (as with all his interviews)

I've read all about it from The Pentagraph. It is pretty clear. Aside from The Pentagraph outright lying, there isn't much room for Moore to explain it away. Strangely enough though, the media haven't reported it so most people don't know. So the war room hasn't needed to defend it. Which is a shame.

downquark1 · 03-08-2004, 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by punky

Really? Do you know whwn it was or have a video of it? I'd like to see that (as with all his interviews)

Interview here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,127236,00.html
Video

And o'reily bragging and hypocritical bullsh*t:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,127898,00.html
Video

Xaccers · 03-08-2004, 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

Interview here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,127236,00.html
Video

And o'reily bragging and hypocritical bullsh*t:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,127898,00.html
Video

Jesus H Christ! Stop the war! I never knew we were sending pre-pubecent soldiers into war!
That's outrageous!
I don't believe it but it must be true if MM said it!

downquark1 · 03-08-2004, 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Jesus H Christ! Stop the war! I never knew we were sending pre-pubecent soldiers into war!
That's outrageous!
I don't believe it but it must be true if MM said it!

exactly, I've come up with better arguments on this forum. I think they bribed him with cake

Russ · 03-08-2004, 19:21

I get the impression that Moore should perhaps keep away from grassy knolls for a while....

Xaccers · 03-08-2004, 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

exactly, I've come up with better arguments on this forum. I think they bribed him with cake

Exactly, claiming we're sacrificing children, oh get real, they're soldiers and no sensible person joins up thinking they'll never be put in danger

punky · 03-08-2004, 19:45

It irritates me when interviewers like O'Reily et al. keep cutting the interviewee off mid sentence. If it was me, i'd probably end up smacking the guy.

Moore didn't really come off smelling of roses in that interview (I haven't seen the video yet, plugin issues, i'll sort it later). He seems to trot out the same old rhetoric whereas O'Reily is coming off the more sensible side.

What I would like to know is this: Whenever anyone says the war was right because Saddam was removed, people like Moore always say: "But they said it was about WMD". Let's just say Bush said it was a purely humanitarian issue. Would they still support the war? And if yes, how does it matter what Bush said, when the overall action, was good?

Flubflow · 03-08-2004, 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Exactly, claiming we're sacrificing children, oh get real, they're soldiers and no sensible person joins up thinking they'll never be put in danger

The general idea is that when you send soldiers to war you ARE sacrificing them so that the rest of you can hopefully sleep more peacefully in your beds.
When you send teenage soldiers to war then you are sacrificing children. It is a perfectly valid point of view and to some extent depends on your legal/moral definition of "child".

Xaccers · 03-08-2004, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flubflow

The general idea is that when you send soldiers to war you ARE sacrificing them so that the rest of you can hopefully sleep more peacefully in your beds.
When you send teenage soldiers to war then you are sacrificing children. It is a perfectly valid point of view and to some extent depends on your legal/moral definition of "child".

Someone who's old enough to sign up in the US military is not a child.
And the thing about soldiers is, ultimately, part of their job is to be sacrificed. That's one of the reasons why I have such high regard for them, they are willing to lay down their lives.

Stuart · 03-08-2004, 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Jesus H Christ! Stop the war! I never knew we were sending pre-pubecent soldiers into war!
That's outrageous!
I don't believe it but it must be true if MM said it!

So thats what the job lot of Lion King videos and Action Men the US Army ordered were for...

04-08-2004, 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by punky

Let's just say Bush said it was a purely humanitarian issue. Would they still support the war? And if yes, how does it matter what Bush said, when the overall action, was good?

Whilst getting rid of Saddam might be classified as "an improvement", I'd hardly describe the current situation in Iraq as "good".

And if it being humanitarian is so good, why haven't the USA invaded the Sudan?