[Merged] The Europe Thread

[Matth]

The one that, despite public apprension, he signed !!!!

It still sounds like it can be thrown out by a referendum though - "RED LINES?" - we need to draw the red lines a step back from where we are now and drag europe, or at least our own part in it, back to being a trading partnership ONLY - I too am in the "trade yes, political/economic union no!" camp, but if push came to shove, I'd vote OUT rather than IN if the current direction continues.

Originally Posted by Matth

The one that, despite public apprension, he signed !!!!

It still sounds like it can be thrown out by a referendum though - "RED LINES?" - we need to draw the red lines a step back from where we are now and drag europe, or at least our own part in it, back to being a trading partnership ONLY - I too am in the "trade yes, political/economic union no!" camp, but if push came to shove, I'd vote OUT rather than IN if the current direction continues.

Yep, he can make as many 'historic day' speeches as he likes, the constitution will never see the light of day because there's no way he can win a referendum in this country. So, it's as you were, Europe.

http://www.britainineurope.org.uk

Good site, since all we have heard is the negative side of the EU lets here the other side

Originally Posted by Damien

http://www.britainineurope.org.uk

Good site, since all we have heard is the negative side of the EU lets here the other side

Links are very useful as footnotes to discussion, but they're no substitute for discussion itself. If there has been a lack of positive promotion of Europe in this thread, then it's because members of this forum won't (or can't) do it. What I'm still waiting for is for someone to post here a well-thought-out few paragraphs that say something along the lines of, 'closer European integration is a good thing because, 1. 2. 3. ...'

Preferably this list should avoid meaningless cliches about inevitability (because it isn't), and putting forward holiday exchange rates (which are utterly trivial when compared to the economy as a whole).

EDIT

Just spent a few minutes reading that site. Long on the scaremonger rhetoric (Britain will be 'on the fringe', 'left behind' 'has nothing to fear', etc etc etc etc) but very short on fact-based discussion. A real pity, as I genuinely want to engage with this issue. I think my favourite part of the whole site, though, is the link which promises to tell you all about how the Euro would be good for Britain ... it causes a 404 Page not found error.

[SMHarman]

Listening on the Radio today, some PR company has done a survey of MPs and Cabinet ministers and the number of times they mention Europe in speeches (and in a positive light) and it is near 0.

Conclusion the govt needs some PR from within aswell.

Originally Posted by towny

Just spent a few minutes reading that site. Long on the scaremonger rhetoric (Britain will be 'on the fringe', 'left behind' 'has nothing to fear', etc etc etc etc) but very short on fact-based discussion. A real pity, as I genuinely want to engage with this issue. I think my favourite part of the whole site, though, is the link which promises to tell you all about how the Euro would be good for Britain ... it causes a 404 Page not found error.

We will be left behind the rest of euro and be 'on the fringe and we do not have anything to fear the scaremogering has mainly come from the anti-europeans

Originally Posted by Damien

We will be left behind the rest of euro and be 'on the fringe

What research can you quote, or link to, that backs up this rather sweeping claim?

and we do not have anything to fear the scaremogering has mainly come from the anti-europeans

Hello pot, this is kettle calling ... Have you forgotten last Wednesday's Independent already? In case you hadn't noticed, the following morning's paper ran four letters it received as a result of that article. Three of them were highly critical of it (none of them was Graham's letter, though, pity!).

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Damien

We will be left behind the rest of euro and be 'on the fringe and we do not have anything to fear the scaremogering has mainly come from the anti-europeans

That suggests that the other members of Europe are not to be trusted to adhere to their previous treaties which state that countries not signing up will not be penalised or hindered in any way.
Do you really want us to get into bed with such unscrupilous goverments?


And what is "We will be left behind the rest of euro and be 'on the fringe" if not scaremongering?

Originally Posted by towny

What research can you quote, or link to, that backs up this rather sweeping claim?



Hello pot, this is kettle calling ... Have you forgotten last Wednesday's Independent already? In case you hadn't noticed, the following morning's paper ran four letters it received as a result of that article. Three of them were highly critical of it (none of them was Graham's letter, though, pity!).

That is only one case what about the pages after pages of front pages from the sun, the mirror and the mail about it? I.E Taht he doont have a veto and he dont control our defense and such? One front page against all the ones from the anti-europe camp?

Have you forgotton all of those.

ALos we will be on the frindge as again we canot control european law but still have to follow them

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Damien

ALos we will be on the frindge as again we canot control european law but still have to follow them

So you do think the other members will not honour their current agreement then, that if we don't sign up we won't be hindered?

Originally Posted by towny

Hello pot, this is kettle calling ... Have you forgotten last Wednesday's Independent already?

Also if you note the "anti-Europe" claims it dismisses, half of them are from that august reporting organ The Sun!

Shooting fish in a barrel doesn't mean you're a good fisherman...!

In case you hadn't noticed, the following morning's paper ran four letters it received as a result of that article. Three of them were highly critical of it (none of them was Graham's letter, though, pity!).

Pity indeed

Originally Posted by Xaccers

That suggests that the other members of Europe are not to be trusted to adhere to their previous treaties which state that countries not signing up will not be penalised or hindered in any way.
Do you really want us to get into bed with such unscrupilous goverments?

They're not to be trusted? Perish the thought!

After all, it's not as if France and Germany have completely blown through their assigned spending limits and gone into deficit and then said "sod you lot", is it?!

Still, I'm sure we're both just "scaremongering" by suggesting such things, aren't we?!

Originally Posted by Damien

ALos we will be on the frindge as again we canot control european law but still have to follow them

Sorry, *why* will we have to follow European Laws?

Yes, we will have to comply with *some* of them if we want to trade with Europe, but that's the same as us trading with America or Japan or any other countries and is nothing new.

But you seem to be suggesting that, even though we're not part of some Greater Europe, they can *force* any laws they choose upon us.

[downquark1]

Can someone set up a simple pros and cons of the debate.

Instead of the current system of debate being:
Pro: something nice will happen
Con: the pro was said by a pro-europe paper.

Originally Posted by downquark1

Can someone set up a simple pros and cons of the debate.

Instead of the current system of debate being:
Pro: something nice will happen
Con: the pro was said by a pro-europe paper.

Here is a bbc article busting some of the myths about europe

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3825521.stm