[Merged] The Europe Thread

[kronas]

easy one, no to the euro, no to brussels, no to them creating our laws or associated details including interest rates etc, although i welcome trade ties.....

What are the benfits of withdrawing from europe?

We need the EU more than it needs us trade wise we make money from the EU, easer tourism to the eu their and back it is so EASY to go to france and have medical treatment if you had a problem over there and such

WHat is to gain

[iadom]

Originally Posted by Damien

there are loads of benfits economy wise and trade and law wise

Such as???

we lose over £20 billion pound also we still have to follow EU trade laws but cant change them

Also a lot of laws from the eu have been good such as the enviromental ones, confirmed 4 weeks holiday, more martinity leave etc

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Damien

<snip> more martinity leave etc

Is that time you get off work for the purpose of getting sloshed and getting someone pregnant?

(Sorry I couldn't resist)

Originally Posted by Damien

What are the benfits of withdrawing from europe?

We need the EU more than it needs us trade wise we make money from the EU, easer tourism to the eu their and back it is so EASY to go to france and have medical treatment if you had a problem over there and such

WHat is to gain

Let me make clear that I personally am not in favour of outright withdrawl from the EU. I support UKIP as it is the best means at my disposal of focusing the main political parties on what I am in favour of - and that is a far looser association of sovreign nation states.

Perhaps you could explain to me what is to be gained by 'ever closer political union'? When the current draft Constitution of the EU calls for certain powers to be granted to the EU in such a way that national Governments are not allowed to make their own decisions in certain areas, unless the EU has first decided that it doesn't want to, where is the British national interest served? When membership of the Euro would instantly mean interest rates in the UK reduced from 4.5% as we now have, to just 2%, how would British national interest be served, given that the expert opinion of the Bank of England is that interest rates in the UK need to go up in order to prevent the housing market spiralling out of control? In fact, perhaps you could explain how the German national interest is served by its membership of the Euro, given that its economy is in recession and economists believe that the country requires an interest rate of 0% in order to kick-start growth?

These are the questions that I have never yet heard a Euro-enthusiast answer convincingly. This morning's sad excuse of a front page in the Independent did not even begin to address these issues. What it did was cloud the debate with yet more amateurish rhetoric (something I accept the anti-euro camp is also doing).

I can't answer your question about withdrawing because I don't want to withdraw. I'm going to bed now but tomorrow (if I get time, busy day) I will post some of my reasons for wanting less close integration. Perhaps you would return the favour and post some defence of European integration? (and please, don't just quote the Independent at me, it will make you look foolish )

[iadom]

Originally Posted by Damien

we lose over £20 billion pound also we still have to follow EU trade laws but cant change them

Also a lot of laws from the eu have been good such as the enviromental ones, confirmed 4 weeks holiday, more martinity leave etc

How can we "lose" over £20 billion when we are the second largest contributor to EU funds? As has been stated elsewhere, any laws that are deemed suitable or sensible can be retained or reintroduced if needed.

Originally Posted by iadom

How can we "lose" over £20 billion when we are the second largest contributor to EU funds? As has been stated elsewhere, any laws that are deemed suitable or sensible can be retained or reintroduced if needed.

YOu get what you give, YOu do get money from the EU just in other ways I know that the figure we lose if something like £20 billion pounds i have seen it on a newpaper report, a bbc report, and it was also in the inderpendent yesturday

[iadom]

Originally Posted by Damien

YOu get what you give, YOu do get money from the EU just in other ways I know that the figure we lose if something like £20 billion pounds i have seen it on a newpaper report, a bbc report, and it was also in the inderpendent yesturday

But we don't get back anything like the amount we contribute, even allowing for Maggie Thatchers claw back deals. And the Independent is totally biased in favour of Europe so to quote Mandy Rice Davies ( or was it Christine Keeler ) "they would say that, wouldn't they"

[Bifta]

Originally Posted by WNA

I don't want us to move to the Euro. Too complicated.

How is it complicated? I deal with sterling and Euro every day, I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but I manage.

Originally Posted by Damien

YOu get what you give, YOu do get money from the EU just in other ways I know that the figure we lose if something like £20 billion pounds i have seen it on a newpaper report, a bbc report, and it was also in the inderpendent yesturday

Oh, right, it was in the papers so it must be true

Stop quoting the Independent and tell us why you think the Euro, and closer European integration, is a good idea. I answered your question in The European Election thread with some worrying statistics about the Euro last night .... and could somebody pleeeeease merge this thread into that ongoing Europe thread:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...ad.php?t=13531

This is the third Europe thread in as many weeks and each one winds up discussing the same general issues, regardless of the initial question. I want to talk about it but it's getting confusing!!!!

Originally Posted by iadom

But we don't get back anything like the amount we contribute, even allowing for Maggie Thatchers claw back deals. And the Independent is totally biased in favour of Europe so to quote Mandy Rice Davies ( or was it Christine Keeler ) "they would say that, wouldn't they"

Mandy Rice-Davies, on hearing that Lord Astor was denying her stories of shenanigans at Cliveden

[downquark1]

I personally agree with the principles of a greater democracy and regulating certain aspects of trade, but I'm not going to agree on something that will ultimately harm us for no good reason, so I personally am going to wait before the constitution is finished before deciding on whether or not it is a good thing.

As for the Euro, I have no gripes with the principle (apart from 5 euros doesn't sound as snappy) but I'm no economist so I don't know the greater implications.

Originally Posted by downquark1

As for the Euro, I have no gripes with the principle (apart from 5 euros doesn't sound as snappy) but I'm no economist so I don't know the greater implications.

It aint rocket science - the Euro exists because it suits the grand political aspirations of those who believe in 'The Project'. It is economically indefensible, and those who purport to make economic defences of it merely do so either to hide the true political motives of it, or have been hoodwinked by others who do so.

Gordon Brown, love him or loathe him, is just about the most respected finance minister in the world, and he has repeatedly, and carefully, insisted that Britain would only join the Euro if it was demonstrably in our interest to do so. It is clear that he is sceptical that it will ever be in our interest.

The Bank of England, in setting an interest rate of 4.5% while the Eurozone rate is just 2%, demonstrates by its actions that the Euro would be bad for Britain. Macro-economic policy isn't like dusting crops, boy: a base rate of 2% would fuel rampant house price inflation, prompt massive levels of consumer debt in the UK and eventually stoking up inflation ... and that would end our economic stability real quick wouldn't it.

Conversely Germany, languishing in recession, finds 2% to be too high to stimulate recovery. Economists there say the country needs a 0% rate. There is no way Germany will get this, of course - 2% is the best compromise the ECB can come up with, seeing as it has the impossible task of setting a single rate for the dozen or so Eurozone economies, none of which are as converged as they were meant to be in order to allow the currency to come into existence in the first place, because of course the economic criteria were fudged and sidestepped when they threatened to derail what is, and always has been, a political project.

[MovedGoalPosts]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

I don't want us out of Europe I just don't want us in a federal state of Europe.

It's not what I voted for in the referendum what ever Edward Heath thought.If I'd actually been asked I'd would have said no.All I voted for was to join a Common Market.

Well said

I was too young to have a vote then but realistically that is what Europe was about, and what it should still be about.

Somehow over time the principle of free trade and a level playing field for all countries in the Common Market, or Eurpoean Economic Community as it became, has become confused with a need for legislation that now affects all aspects of our life. I fail to see how ideas of integrated EU foreign policy, a European Army and even a European Court really promote this free trade process. I cannot understand why we must potentially loose control of our own taxation and similar economic issues if realistically the aim of free trade must surely be to allow every body to sell or buy goods or services at the most competetive price or value, provided that appropriate standards for the product are met.

I don't necessarily support a complete withdrawal of Britain from the EU. But I certainly don't support us loosing further controls to centralisation, which has nothing to do with the ideal of free trade.