Two Powder Missiles thrown at PM @ House of Commons

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by andygrif

The global media are reporting that Tony Blair got pelted with a powder - what started out as a potentially very serious story (no-one knew what the powder was) now turns into a 'funny' new story, like Prezza thumping someone.

I don't think Blair's ego is terribly damaged by this, it's only as bad as someone throwing an egg on an individual basis - polticians are used to it. The securtity services' egos however should be: It's the fact that someone that volatile can make it into the VIP area of the arena that I find troubling. I'm not overly concerned by someone being covered with purple flour, especially Tony Blair - like I said, it's funny. I'm also not overly concerned with F4J's plight - whilst their sentiments are serious their delivery is inane - I really can't take such stupidity seriously. Whilst you're maybe of the opposite opinion, and would support such antics to further their case, many don't - and let's face it this lot have been engaged in quite a list of antics.

Whilst they may be very good at self-promotion, I don't think even they know what they are promoting, let alone all the people who are laughing at them.

They know what they are promoting. It is you that does not.

In future if for example you ever end up in a situation where your ex-wife/girlfriend won't allow you proper access to your children even when it has been granted by the courts and you find yourself beating your head against a brick wall trying to get justice served, then you would be thankful of those who take the time and effort to promote that plight.

Other commentary such as "all the people who are laughing at them" is offensive, dismissive and childish.

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

They know what they are promoting. It is you that does not.

In future if for example you ever end up in a situation where your ex-wife/girlfriend won't allow you proper access to your children even when it has been granted by the courts and you find yourself beating your head against a brick wall trying to get justice served, then you would be thankful of those who take the time and effort to promote that plight.

How do you know I haven't been in that position?

Originally Posted by Flubflow

Other commentary such as "all the people who are laughing at them" is offensive, dismissive and childish.

Childish - like the pressure group's actions you mean?

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by andygrif

How do you know I haven't been in that position?


Childish - like the pressure group's actions you mean?

Given such dismissive views of F4J in general, the only logical assumption is that you haven't been delt such apalling lack of justice.

No. Childish in the way like you have no argument so you try to grab some ficticious support out of thin air from "all the people laughing who are laughing at them".
Where are all these people laughing? Do they have a website?

[paulyoung666]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

Given such dismissive views of F4J in general, the only logical assumption is that you haven't been delt such apalling lack of justice.

No. Childish in the way like you have no argument so you try to grab some ficticious support out of thin air from "all the people laughing who are laughing at them".
Where are all these people laughing? Do they have a website?

as i stand squarely behind you , the way blokes are treat is appaling ( sp ) , on a slight tangent , it is only now that you hear about blokes being beaten up by the wives / girlfriends , it has been going on for years but only recently recognized

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

Given such dismissive views of F4J in general, the only logical assumption is that you haven't been delt such apalling lack of justice.

No. Childish in the way like you have no argument so you try to grab some ficticious support out of thin air from "all the people laughing who are laughing at them".
Where are all these people laughing? Do they have a website?

Well that's an interesting viewpoint. However, I feel squarely that you very much need to separate the three issues here to see where I am coming from:

1. Mock terrorist attacks on the HoC - like it or not this is what happened today. If it was a Muslim cleric doing it to highlight the daily injustices that occour to British Muslims everyday - would you be as supportive?

2. Injustices towards fathers who cannot get to see their children - I fully understand the plight and yes there are injustices there too, and no I don't think they should go unchallenged. I don't want any father, who is capabable of behaving like a parent to miss out on time with their children, or vice versa. Just to make this point crystal clear - no-one is laughing at those who are suffering any sort of injustice.

3. Fathers For Justice. Frankly this outfit is a joke. I thought it the other day when I went through their website in fine detail, I thought it when some moron diverted each of the emergency services time and efforts by climbing up a crane and I think it today after this moronic outburst.

At a time of heightened national security, these bafoons entered the very foundation of our country and pretended to stage a terrorist attack. In fact, just by pretending to do it some would say is a terrorist attack in itself.

I was listening to the radio this evening with a 'spokesman' from F4J - who described himself as 'head of stunts' - meaning that they go looking for just these kind of events that they think will bring them more support. Not only that but he fully supprted today's actions by the two.

Frankly, if they had kept their mouths shut and not tried to grow a brain, then they would have my support - but they chose to follow the role of anarchists rather than legitimate campaigners - and this means that wider issue is lost, and they will not be taken seriously. That is who I am laughing at - and actually not out of humour but out of pity that the serious message can be lost becuase a few in the group think it's clever to stage such 'stunts'.

These few are not fit to be parents, and I would be surprised if the two arrested today will have their cases helped as a result.

[sir_drinks_alot]

oh boy there at it Again why am i not surprised maybe if thay stopped Causeing public Disturbances all the time and took some affirmative action fathers 4 justice would get some where

[punky]

Originally Posted by paulyoung666

as i stand squarely behind you , the way blokes are treat is appaling ( sp ) , on a slight tangent , it is only now that you hear about blokes being beaten up by the wives / girlfriends , it has been going on for years but only recently recognized

Me too mate. And after what you said at the end, this needs to be said. The late night repeat of Trisha was on the in the background, the other night. Twice this woman said during a particular fight she hit this guy, and both times the audience just laughed. I was appalled. If it was the man hitting the woman, the audience certainly wouldn't of laughed. Still thats Trisha for you.

[Enterian]

On another note I have to say I am somewhat concerned by the fact that following the 'incident' the House was suspended and the MP's, Press and Public shot out of the building like rats up a drainpipe.

Had some sort of chemical or biological agent have been used wouldn't that mean that a large part of central London could potentially have been contaminated?

Surely attempts to contain the contamination should have been made, even to the extent of locking the doors if necessary? Or is that only for us 'ordinary' people?

[andygrif]

Spot on - things did really not go as planned, and I am sure that the good that will come out of this will be that a revised evactuation/containment plan will be introduced.

Originally Posted by andygrif

<snip>At a time of heightened national security, these bafoons entered the very foundation of our country and pretended to stage a terrorist attack. In fact, just by pretending to do it some would say is a terrorist attack in itself.<snip>

They did absolutely nothing of the sort! The throwing of flour, eggs, rotten fruit and all kinds of other stuff is a firmly established part of political campaigning in this country. It's a tradition that goes back centuries. Hurling missiles at politicians doesn't suddenly become a '[mock] terrorist attack' just because a real terrorist organisation is thought to be plotting outrages in the UK.

'Terrorism' is fast becoming a curse word alongside 'paedophile' in our culture. When we sensationalise the sickening (and thankfully rare) to the extent that everybody is paranoid about it constantly, and use language in such a careless fashion - especially when attempting to villify somebody you happen to disagree with - paediatricians get their windows smashed by idiots, and dads who have been mistreated by our courts get tarred alongside Osama Bin Laden. Both scenarios are equally stupid and I think a little more care in the use of language is appropriate here.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by andygrif

<snip>

Sorry, I know you're just giving your views but that's IMO just rubbish. F4J are left to such 'stunts' because there is no other way to bring the injustice of the family courts to the public's attention. They started off as a more peaceful group but that got them nowhere. Personally I would congratulate these guys for going to such lengths on order that other men may one day have the unfair laws changed which will allow them to see their children.

How about instead of criticising those who are trying to make life easier for those treated unfairly, we concentrate on changing the way family courts treat fathers like third class citizens? Women have always traditionally been held back in the workplace and unfairly disadvantaged, and quite rightly have had laws changed for them and steadily over the years changes have been implemented.

Why not the same for men?

Originally Posted by Russ D

Sorry, I know you're just giving your views but that's IMO just rubbish. F4J are left to such 'stunts' because there is no other way to bring the injustice of the family courts to the public's attention. They started off as a more peaceful group but that got them nowhere.

If they had conducted this "stunt" before the custody hearing (on a different issue) I can pretty much guarantee that it would not go well in their favour, at the end of the day they have committed a crime of assault. Now because they feel wronged this behaviour suddenly becomes acceptable? Is it only acceptable because you agree with their cause?

They do have a legitimate cause, but such actions will only serve to harm the cause.

[Russ]

If I've been following the story correctly, those two aren't currently in any custody hearings - they are doing it to highlight the problems faced by other fathers. Breaking the law certainly is never to be advised but I say good on them for placing themselves in the firing line for others.

It just goes to show the lengths some loving fathers who are reduced to desperation will go to in order to see their kids.

[zovat]

Originally Posted by andygrif

Well that's an interesting viewpoint. However, I feel squarely that you very much need to separate the three issues here to see where I am coming from:

1. Mock terrorist attacks on the HoC - like it or not this is what happened today. If it was a Muslim cleric doing it to highlight the daily injustices that occour to British Muslims everyday - would you be as supportive?

Pesonally - Yes I would - in this country we have the right of free speech and the right to protest.
If someone chooses to do this by throwing flour at the PM - good luck to them...

would you be more supportive if they had done this as the PM was doing a walkabout in a town somewhere, of if it was a rotten egg that was thrown (it wouldn't be the first time for either)?

Originally Posted by andygrif

2. Injustices towards fathers who cannot get to see their children - I fully understand the plight and yes there are injustices there too, and no I don't think they should go unchallenged. I don't want any father, who is capabable of behaving like a parent to miss out on time with their children, or vice versa. Just to make this point crystal clear - no-one is laughing at those who are suffering any sort of injustice.

would so many people be aware of this issue without the coverage caused by F4J ?

Originally Posted by andygrif

3. Fathers For Justice. Frankly this outfit is a joke. I thought it the other day when I went through their website in fine detail, I thought it when some moron diverted each of the emergency services time and efforts by climbing up a crane and I think it today after this moronic outburst.

The actions may be a little crass and some would say childish, but they have highlighted the issue in the media, and forced people to acknowledge that this stuff is going on.


[QUOTE=andygrif]
At a time of heightened national security, these bafoons entered the very foundation of our country and pretended to stage a terrorist attack. In fact, just by pretending to do it some would say is a terrorist attack in itself.[/qoute]

I have to disagree, whilst this has highlighted an area of concern for the security of the HOC, it was an act that once again bought the issue into the public eye. The fact that they did this shows a degree of desperation to get the issue noticed, but the fact that they were able to do this says far more about the security at the HOC than it does about the people doing it. Again - would you be so upset if they threw a rotten egg at the PM as he walked down the street?

Originally Posted by andygrif

I was listening to the radio this evening with a 'spokesman' from F4J - who described himself as 'head of stunts' - meaning that they go looking for just these kind of events that they think will bring them more support. Not only that but he fully supprted today's actions by the two.

And if this gets one more person who is affected by these injustices to contact them and realise that he is not alone, then I cannot see the problem.

Originally Posted by andygrif

Frankly, if they had kept their mouths shut and not tried to grow a brain, then they would have my support - but they chose to follow the role of anarchists rather than legitimate campaigners - and this means that wider issue is lost, and they will not be taken seriously. That is who I am laughing at - and actually not out of humour but out of pity that the serious message can be lost becuase a few in the group think it's clever to stage such 'stunts'.

You obviously feel strongly about this issue, and feel that F4J are doing more harm than good - I have a different opinion, though I feel no less stronly about the issue.

whether F4J will be taken seriously remains to be seen, but if the issue gets publicity (and remember the old saying, there is no such thing as bad publicity) and the government is forced to look at the issue, then who are we to judge the acts of others.

Originally Posted by andygrif

These few are not fit to be parents, and I would be surprised if the two arrested today will have their cases helped as a result.

How can you decide whether someone is fit to be a parent based on one act?

People who are desperate will do desperate things. Until you know the circumstances that drove these people to make such a protest (whether you agree with the action or not) you cannot possibly make a judgement on them.


as always these are my opinions - feel free to disagree, but I'm not going to change them any more than you are likely to change yours.

Originally Posted by Russ D

If I've been following the story correctly, those two aren't currently in any custody hearings

Probably because if they *were* then the mother's solicitors would use this as another excuse to deny them access...