School helped secret abortion

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by towny

Hang on, I'm prolife as well, but I'm trying not to make it the issue in this topic, as I think the issue of the parents not being informed is what is of particular concern here. Nevertheless, OB, I think you are way off-beam making such a huge statement as 'not human' and suggesting silver needs to go and learn about it.

There is no doubt that a six-week-old unborn child has no hope of survival outside of his/her mother's body, due to being completely unready, biologically, to face the world. But to say the child is actually not human is stretching definitions way too far the child has the genetic code of a human being. If s/he is not human, what is s/he? And we haven't even begun to discuss the possibility that there might be more to being human than the biochemical machine that is your body and brain. What about the possibility of a spirit? Science has not (arguably cannot) answer that question. If we have a spirit, or essence, that can exist apart from our bodies, we have to ask when that spirit arises (and where it comes from, for that matter). And if it arises at conception, then an unborn child at any stage of development is arguably as human as the rest of us, both spiritually and biologically.

I am not setting out to try to prove my point of view here. I just think it is important to consider that there are alternative explanations and to avoid making sweeping pronouncements.

Great, reasoned post Towny

I posted a fact, that's all. A six week old foetus IS NOT a human. s1lv3rs statement was factually incorrect. Everyone is entitled to their OPO about spirits/essences etc etc (I'm also athiest as well as prochoice), but shouldn't let their own emotional and personal beliefs cloud a factual issue.

[Marge]

Difficult situation as I saw quite a few times during my surgery days. No automatic rights for parents and even stricter for things like terminations etc for underage girls, total no go area for disclosing information. I think the school probably advised her of the options that were available but ultimately it was her decision. I can see why mum is very very upset but from my experience she didn't have to be told. From a moral point of view I'm not sure, why didn't the girl want her mum to be told, what was she afraid of. Was the thought of mum knowing worse than actually having the termination.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Debsy42

I can see why mum is very very upset but from my experience she didn't have to be told. From a moral point of view I'm not sure, why didn't the girl want her mum to be told, what was she afraid of. Was the thought of mum knowing worse than actually having the termination.

Unfortunately, the Law (in this case Rules) and Morals are often two totally different things.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by scastle

Unfortunately, the Law (in this case Rules) and Morals are often two totally different things.

Yes, the law is the law, morals are different from person to person.

[zovat]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Yup, thats my beef with the case....I feel that it's immoral to not bring the parents in on the whole discussion.

I'm with you on tis one Ramrod...

I am not a a parent (yet), but for me, this is about moral issues - not legal ones...

It is legal to do what they did - however abhorent it may be to my own personal beliefs - so lets get that out of the way.

This child was pregnant at 14 - therefore she had had underage sex, therefore she had broken the LAW. Is it not the moral (if not necessarily legal) duty of the persons who are acting in loco parentis to advise the parent/legal guardian of the child that this has occured, and what action they intend to take?
If they caught the child drinking or smoking underage, I'm sure they would tell the parents - regardless of the wishes of the girl.

From a moral standpoint (and this is always an inflamatory area) The girl did not want to tell her mother because she thought she would be angry - a perfectly normal teenage response - once the mother knew - she offered support and the chance to keep the child.

We do not know why the girl first decided to abort, but once she new her mother would support her, she regretted that decision (and by then it was already too late to stop the abortion). So we now have a teenager who has gone through an abortion which she did not want (by the time it was completed), a mother who feels that her child cannot trust her, and visa-versa, and a health authority that made a decision with a huge effect on a minors life with no consultation with the parents, or even (by what we can read) a period for the girl to consider her actions.

I for one am amazed that this is legal, and would hope that the furore surrounding this case leads to a scruitinisation (if not a change) of the law.

IN MY OPINION this is a step too far for political correctness and the rights of children.

would they have still not informed the parents if the girl was 12 or even 10? (some girls are physically mature at that age). There has to be a line.....

On the one hand people are saying "we should not have to make these decisions - that is the role of the parent" and on the other, they are keeping the parent out of decisions that have a far greater impact on the lives and stability of the families.


ok - I've said my piece - these are opinions, and you may feel free to disagree. Lets not get into a personal slanging match - lets just put our opinions on the table and if needs be agree to disagee.

[Chimaera]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I understand how the counsellors had to keep the knowledge secret from the mother (thats fine), what I cannot understand is how a medical procedure was carried out without her knowledge or consent. The mind boggles.....

I think she took the tablets that induce abortion - the ones you take a few days apart? So it was fairly easy for it to take place without the mother knowing about it until it was all over.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by zovat

We do not know why the girl first decided to abort, but once she new her mother would support her, she regretted that decision (and by then it was already too late to stop the abortion). So we now have a teenager who has gone through an abortion which she did not want (by the time it was completed), a mother who feels that her child cannot trust her, and visa-versa, and a health authority that made a decision with a huge effect on a minors life with no consultation with the parents, or even (by what we can read) a period for the girl to consider her actions.

Maybe I missed this in the article but how do we know the mother didn't force her to change her mind based on the mother's moral beliefs?

Originally Posted by downquark1

Maybe I missed this in the article but how do we know the mother didn't force her to change her mind based on the mother's moral beliefs?

We do not know that. The article doesn't say. Neither does it say how the 'counsellor' may have nudged the girl towards his/her own moral beliefs. A moral vacuum is an interesting place to be when discussing theory - but in the real world, I think it unlikely that any of the adults involved managed not to put a little of their own point of view into the discussion.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by towny

We do not know that. The article doesn't say. Neither does it say how the 'counsellor' may have nudged the girl towards his/her own moral beliefs. A moral vacuum is an interesting place to be when discussing theory - but in the real world, I think it unlikely that any of the adults involved managed not to put a little of their own point of view into the discussion.

It's just that if I was in the position of the mother, and realised it was irreversable, I would have considered going along with the abortion idea in order to relieve the guilt of the girl. ---- but I guess this would then leave her unable to appeal to change the system.

Counsellors are trained - or at least told not to push their beliefs, but mother's aren't.

[Jon M]

Ironic really, that this girl, as a child, has the right to choose compared to her parents lack of choice and yet as a potential parent herself has the choice of life and death over her unborn baby which has no choice whatsoever. Seems like double standards to me.

[zovat]

Originally Posted by towny

We do not know that. The article doesn't say. Neither does it say how the 'counsellor' may have nudged the girl towards his/her own moral beliefs. A moral vacuum is an interesting place to be when discussing theory - but in the real world, I think it unlikely that any of the adults involved managed not to put a little of their own point of view into the discussion.

Agreed - We only have the mothers statement to go on - she stated that having told the daughter that they would support her, the daughter wanted to keep the child.

No matter how well trained a counsellor is, it is human nature to talk in more favourable terms about the choice that you would prefer someone to make.

[dilli-theclaw]

I'm not sure how I would/will act if my son came home to tell me that he'd got a young girl pregnant - but I like to hope I'd be able to talk to him about it.

But unless I've BEEN in that situation I guess I'll never really know - so i'm unable to say anything against either the girl - the mother or the school. All of whom (i HOPE) acted with the young girls best interest in mind.

Having said all that - I can understand why mum is pi$$ed with the school.

I dont know - I really don't, but I guess I'm going to have to really start to think about these things more.

[kronas]

ok my view won this:

the parents should have been notified of the situation, reading the article they(the school) are not legally bound to disclose details when school 'community workers or even teachers are talked to about sensitive issues, this to me is grossly unfair as the issue is trumatic for the girl and should be treated as a 'special circumstance.

what is going through the heads of that school ?

she is way too young to make the decision for herself, as it showed when she changed her mind but it was too late.

atleast the mother of the 14 year old should have been notified to protect her daughter and guide her through her decision, if the mother is supportive and can provide the necessary emotional and informational needs as to what the child should do.......

although the only logical reason i see the school from not telling the childs parents was because of some parents reaction to this type of situation, which can infact have a detremental impact on the child such as being 'shouted at' told 'your not keeping it' etc it can also be harmful to the foetus because of the distress caused.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by imback

I don't see how anyone else can be blamed in this situation other than the girl and her mother.

....and the people who carried out an abortion on an underage girl without her mothers knowledge or consent.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Chimaera

I think she took the tablets that induce abortion - the ones you take a few days apart? So it was fairly easy for it to take place without the mother knowing about it until it was all over.

lol....I understand how it was done, just can't believe that it was allowed to take place without her knowledge or consent. Where does it stop? What if the girl was 10?
.....and as someone else pointed out.....if the girl had broken the law somehow they would have informed the mother....